9th Graders in Division B

[drcubbin]

(**Disclaimer: We are a 6-8 middle school and have occasionally been able to pull one 9th grader back to compete again, but more than likely none).
While I have tried my best to remain objective about this subject, I have to believe that consistently (year after year) having five 9th graders on a middle school team definitely tilts the scales. I know this because any returning 9th graders are usually "ringers" (not really ringers, but I am lost for a less offensive term) I remember hearing those in 7-9 middle schools say, "but if we don't use our 9th graders on the team, then we only have 7th and 8th graders competing." I do get it, but there are likely very few 6th graders (usually!) who make it to States or Nationals anyway. So the vast majority of Div B teams from 6-8 middle schools are (typically) composed of 7th and 8th graders.
I wonder, if a poll was taken, how many teams that make it to Nationals typically use the "five 9th graders" rule?
To prove this point, (call it an ExpD event) I would like for one year to not allow any Div B team to use any 9th graders on their team and see if any of the 6-8 teams have the chance to break through the Nationals "glass ceiling".
Rules are rules and we will continue to plug away, but...

I get your point, but I take issue with the underlined part. If you're a small team at a 7-9 school, the concern is not really making states or nationals, but merely trying to stay afloat. If 9th graders are banned, you're effectively reducing the possible student pool by 1/3. Is a small team going to be able to get 6th graders to come to the school to compete? I have my doubts.

Overall, as someone who came from a 6-8 school that almost never had 9th graders, I have trouble seeing an issue with the rule. It permits all teams to use 9th graders, and expands the possible competitor pool for schools of different grade distributions. Reducing the available pool of competitors just to acquire a theoretically more even playing field for the teams at the top is not the move, IMO.

I did not underline that, meaning I was not emphasizing that point. I meant that in general 6th graders are usually learning the ropes. They are in general not the gold medallers on the team. Sure, we have had 6th graders make it to States, but that has been the exception.

As far as "reducing the possible student pool by 1/3" is concerned, I was speaking with a non-science teacher today after I wrote the post today and he asked if they allow 10th graders. I said, "even SciOly understands there has to be a cut-off point - a limit". All I am saying is that a team that has five 9th graders who, by the time States rolls around, have had a year of either chemistry or physics. So imagine putting four 9th graders (with a year of combined physics/chem) against four 8th graders who have been learning it all on their own or by a part-time coach and there are in general leading in 6 events right out of the gate. Not just that, either. If you are a 9th grader, you have most likely been doing your events for 4 years, against middle schoolers who have been doing them for 3 years. That extra year of competition makes a big difference when you are 14 or 15.

The purpose of writing my post was just to express my own personal opinions. Not everyone will agree. I understand that. But I am sure there are plenty of 6-8 schools who are up against those 5 ninth graders every year who understand where I am coming from.

In the back of my mind I have always thought there should be a "limit" rather than an "allotment" on teams. Meaning, if you are middle school and you have a great 5th grader who want to be on your team, so be it - just limit the grade to 8th. If you are a high school and want to bring an 8th grader along with you, bring them - just limit the grade to 12th! Imagine permitting Div C teams to take five college freshman on their team? That is what the 9th grade rule looks like to a lot of people.

[EastStroudsburg13]

I did not underline that, meaning I was not emphasizing that point. I meant that in general 6th graders are usually learning the ropes. They are in general not the gold medallers on the team. Sure, we have had 6th graders make it to States, but that has been the exception.

Correct. I underlined it, because I wanted to highlight that the teams that make States and Nationals are not the only teams that matter.

I am not pretending to say that 9th graders do not have an edge, because they do. But by barring 9th graders from competing in Division B, you could impact a lot of teams that aren't trying to compete at an elite level. They're just trying to compete with the students they have.

If you are a high school and want to bring an 8th grader along with you, bring them - just limit the grade to 12th! Imagine permitting Div C teams to take five college freshman on their team? That is what the 9th grade rule looks like to a lot of people.

This is a bad faith argument, because there is already a limit to the number of 12th graders a high school team can have. It is the exact same rule, except the limit is 7 seniors instead of 5. So if people want an example, you can point directly to that. Bringing up college freshmen is completely irrelevant.

[drcubbin]

I did not underline that, meaning I was not emphasizing that point. I meant that in general 6th graders are usually learning the ropes. They are in general not the gold medallers on the team. Sure, we have had 6th graders make it to States, but that has been the exception.

Correct. I underlined it, because I wanted to highlight that the teams that make States and Nationals are not the only teams that matter.

I am not pretending to say that 9th graders do not have an edge, because they do. But by barring 9th graders from competing in Division B, you could impact a lot of teams that aren't trying to compete at an elite level. They're just trying to compete with the students they have.

If you are a high school and want to bring an 8th grader along with you, bring them - just limit the grade to 12th! Imagine permitting Div C teams to take five college freshman on their team? That is what the 9th grade rule looks like to a lot of people.

This is a bad faith argument, because there is already a limit to the number of 12th graders a high school team can have. It is the exact same rule, except the limit is 7 seniors instead of 5. So if people want an example, you can point directly to that. Bringing up college freshmen is completely irrelevant.

Not true. Not all (and I would guess the majority) of middle schools top out at 6th grade. High school tops out at 12th. For Div C the final grade is 12. For middle school the final grade is 8, unless you can bring back five 9th graders. As George Orwell said, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." And why five? Why not 6, or 7, or 10? If there is a reason for five, I would almost tend to agree with you.

[scispork]

I did not underline that, meaning I was not emphasizing that point. I meant that in general 6th graders are usually learning the ropes. They are in general not the gold medallers on the team. Sure, we have had 6th graders make it to States, but that has been the exception.

Correct. I underlined it, because I wanted to highlight that the teams that make States and Nationals are not the only teams that matter.

I am not pretending to say that 9th graders do not have an edge, because they do. But by barring 9th graders from competing in Division B, you could impact a lot of teams that aren't trying to compete at an elite level. They're just trying to compete with the students they have.

If you are a high school and want to bring an 8th grader along with you, bring them - just limit the grade to 12th! Imagine permitting Div C teams to take five college freshman on their team? That is what the 9th grade rule looks like to a lot of people.

This is a bad faith argument, because there is already a limit to the number of 12th graders a high school team can have. It is the exact same rule, except the limit is 7 seniors instead of 5. So if people want an example, you can point directly to that. Bringing up college freshmen is completely irrelevant.

Not true. Not all (and I would guess the majority) of middle schools top out at 6th grade. High school tops out at 12th. For Div C the final grade is 12. For middle school the final grade is 8, unless you can bring back five 9th graders. As George Orwell said, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." And why five? Why not 6, or 7, or 10? If there is a reason for five, I would almost tend to agree with you.

Most junior high schools top out at 9th grade.

[TheRealLM]

LOL probably not a GREAT idea to start my scioly.org forums journey at such a controversial thread, but I just wanted to get my opinion on this topic out there:

Long story short, I believe 9th graders being on Div B teams is an advantage to these teams. I see it as: they limit the amount of 9th graders per Div B team for a reason. IMO, 9th graders should stick to competing at the Div C level as it was meant for high schoolers (traditionally grades 9-12) while Div B is meant for middle schoolers (traditionally grades 6-8). As for the 7-8 and 7-9 middle schools/junior high schools, I feel they should be allowed to take 6th graders from the local elementary school/schools, but be exempt from 9th graders. The 9th graders at 7-9 schools should be allowed to participate at the local high school. This way, the playing field is much more evened out. As for East's point in that 7-8/7-9 schools can't get 6th graders to come out, I feel that if the 6th graders are interested enough in science and/or Science Olympiad events, they definitely can! Your team just has to do a bit of "advertising" (for example, come out to nearby elementary schools and let them know of the opportunity; practices don't have to be done at school, we learned about the uses of things like Zoom and Google Meet the hard way).

Sure, there have been instances of Div B schools not allowing 9th graders doing well, but I believe that just strengthens the point for not allowing ninth graders to compete. If Daniel Wright can do it (as I see many people in this thread circling back to), why can't other schools too? To go back to why 9th graders are an advantage, it's as simple as they're older. Maybe it's just my personal experience, but I'm taking chemistry as a freshman, and this class has given me far more knowledge on chemistry than I had in middle school. Though I'm not someone doing chemistry events, a 9th grader in a similar position as me on a Div B team could do much better on these chemistry events than other middle schoolers. As for me, some things as simple as being able to join high school clubs like HOSA and just have more motivation to study topics for my future (everything starts to matter now!) have made me far better at biology than I was as an 8th grader. I do bio events and I feel as a high school freshman, I would do better on these events than someone still in grades 6-8. Many schools (like my former middle school) don't allow 9th graders to participate at the Div B level and my state itself (Oregon) has somewhat of an unwritten rule where this can't happen. As a result, the Oregon Div B qualifier for nats is always at a bit of a disadvantage compared to the top schools. By keeping high school freshmen exempt from Div B competition, this disadvantage for certain schools is eliminated.

To wrap up, I'm not saying having 9th graders is immediately skyrocketing your team and making them extremely competitive, but I am saying they provide enough of an advantage for select teams that they should probably stick to Div C competition. With enough practice and study, middle schoolers could be just as good if not better than high schoolers at some events, so why not just stick with them? Adding 9th graders into the mix robs some younger students of an opportunity to learn the ropes and have fun with science.

P.S. This is just my personal opinion, but I could see many other views on the issue. Take this with a grain of salt; you're free to have different points of view!

[drcubbin]

Correct. I underlined it, because I wanted to highlight that the teams that make States and Nationals are not the only teams that matter.

I am not pretending to say that 9th graders do not have an edge, because they do. But by barring 9th graders from competing in Division B, you could impact a lot of teams that aren't trying to compete at an elite level. They're just trying to compete with the students they have.


This is a bad faith argument, because there is already a limit to the number of 12th graders a high school team can have. It is the exact same rule, except the limit is 7 seniors instead of 5. So if people want an example, you can point directly to that. Bringing up college freshmen is completely irrelevant.

Not true. Not all (and I would guess the majority) of middle schools top out at 6th grade. High school tops out at 12th. For Div C the final grade is 12. For middle school the final grade is 8, unless you can bring back five 9th graders. As George Orwell said, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." And why five? Why not 6, or 7, or 10? If there is a reason for five, I would almost tend to agree with you.

Most junior high schools top out at 9th grade.

Not to be contrary, but according to InsideSchools, "Most middle schools serve children in grades 6 to 8, but a few start in 5th or 7th grade." Or we could go to the bible of valid internet reliability (Wikipedia) that says, "Most middle schools in the United States cover grades 6–8, but sometimes 7-9, 7-8 or even 5-8." Most top out at 8th and that is where the limit should be when assembling equal teams. If most topped at 9th, it would still behoove the organizers to accommodate all, rather than some.

[drcubbin]

Not true. Not all (and I would guess the majority) of middle schools top out at 6th grade. High school tops out at 12th. For Div C the final grade is 12. For middle school the final grade is 8, unless you can bring back five 9th graders. As George Orwell said, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." And why five? Why not 6, or 7, or 10? If there is a reason for five, I would almost tend to agree with you.

Most junior high schools top out at 9th grade.

Not to be contrary, but according to InsideSchools, "Most middle schools serve children in grades 6 to 8, but a few start in 5th or 7th grade." Or we could go to the bible of valid internet reliability (Wikipedia) that says, "Most middle schools in the United States cover grades 6–8, but sometimes 7-9, 7-8 or even 5-8." Most top out at 8th and that is where the limit should be when assembling equal teams. If most topped at 9th, it would still behoove the organizers to accommodate all, rather than some.

And remember, this is not one or two 9th graders, but currently five are permitted to make up 1/3 the team of many of our "elite" middle school Science Olympiad teams. And yes, I will agree that you will find more "junior high schools" running up to 9th, but last I checked Division B is "middle school", not junior high school. Now if they really wanted to make it fair, instead of assigning 9th graders to middle school, they should just change the designation or rule that would allow 9th graders who will be attending a 10-12 high school to let the 9th graders participate in their Div C competition. Does that sound reasonable? I'm sure we can find some middle ground here

[drcubbin]

LOL probably not a GREAT idea to start my scioly.org forums journey at such a controversial thread, but I just wanted to get my opinion on this topic out there:

Long story short, I believe 9th graders being on Div B teams is an advantage to these teams. I see it as: they limit the amount of 9th graders per Div B team for a reason. IMO, 9th graders should stick to competing at the Div C level as it was meant for high schoolers (traditionally grades 9-12) while Div B is meant for middle schoolers (traditionally grades 6-8). As for the 7-8 and 7-9 middle schools/junior high schools, I feel they should be allowed to take 6th graders from the local elementary school/schools, but be exempt from 9th graders. The 9th graders at 7-9 schools should be allowed to participate at the local high school. This way, the playing field is much more evened out. As for East's point in that 7-8/7-9 schools can't get 6th graders to come out, I feel that if the 6th graders are interested enough in science and/or Science Olympiad events, they definitely can! Your team just has to do a bit of "advertising" (for example, come out to nearby elementary schools and let them know of the opportunity; practices don't have to be done at school, we learned about the uses of things like Zoom and Google Meet the hard way).

Sure, there have been instances of Div B schools not allowing 9th graders doing well, but I believe that just strengthens the point for not allowing ninth graders to compete. If Daniel Wright can do it (as I see many people in this thread circling back to), why can't other schools too? To go back to why 9th graders are an advantage, it's as simple as they're older. Maybe it's just my personal experience, but I'm taking chemistry as a freshman, and this class has given me far more knowledge on chemistry than I had in middle school. Though I'm not someone doing chemistry events, a 9th grader in a similar position as me on a Div B team could do much better on these chemistry events than other middle schoolers. As for me, some things as simple as being able to join high school clubs like HOSA and just have more motivation to study topics for my future (everything starts to matter now!) have made me far better at biology than I was as an 8th grader. I do bio events and I feel as a high school freshman, I would do better on these events than someone still in grades 6-8. Many schools (like my personal middle school) don't allow 9th graders to participate at the Div B level and my state itself (Oregon) has somewhat of an unwritten rule where this can't happen. As a result, the Oregon Div B qualifier for nats is always at a bit of a disadvantage compared to the top schools. By keeping high school freshmen exempt from Div B competition, this disadvantage for certain schools is eliminated.

To wrap up, I'm not saying having 9th graders is immediately skyrocketing your team and making them extremely competitive, but I am saying they provide enough of an advantage for select teams that they should probably stick to Div C competition. With enough practice and study, middle schoolers could be just as good if not better than high schoolers at some events, so why not just stick with them? Adding 9th graders into the mix robs some younger students of an opportunity to learn the ropes and have fun with science.

P.S. This is just my personal opinion, but I could see many other views on the issue. Take this with a grain of salt; you're free to have different points of view!

For a freshman, you're a pretty smart guy. And as far as getting 6th graders interested? What is the largest SciOly division in the country? Div B? Div C? Wrong and wrong... it is Div A! In fact, Div A is larger than Div B & C combined!! (I learned this at SOSI two years ago). And many regions that have Div A running also have great Div B with winning Div C teams going to Nats! Maybe if we focus on Div A more, we'd get better Div B competitors and wouldn't need to stack the deck with 9th graders. (BTW we - NYC - just started running a Div A two years ago at our Regionals!)

[TheRealLM]

LOL probably not a GREAT idea to start my scioly.org forums journey at such a controversial thread, but I just wanted to get my opinion on this topic out there:

Long story short, I believe 9th graders being on Div B teams is an advantage to these teams. I see it as: they limit the amount of 9th graders per Div B team for a reason. IMO, 9th graders should stick to competing at the Div C level as it was meant for high schoolers (traditionally grades 9-12) while Div B is meant for middle schoolers (traditionally grades 6-8). As for the 7-8 and 7-9 middle schools/junior high schools, I feel they should be allowed to take 6th graders from the local elementary school/schools, but be exempt from 9th graders. The 9th graders at 7-9 schools should be allowed to participate at the local high school. This way, the playing field is much more evened out. As for East's point in that 7-8/7-9 schools can't get 6th graders to come out, I feel that if the 6th graders are interested enough in science and/or Science Olympiad events, they definitely can! Your team just has to do a bit of "advertising" (for example, come out to nearby elementary schools and let them know of the opportunity; practices don't have to be done at school, we learned about the uses of things like Zoom and Google Meet the hard way).

Sure, there have been instances of Div B schools not allowing 9th graders doing well, but I believe that just strengthens the point for not allowing ninth graders to compete. If Daniel Wright can do it (as I see many people in this thread circling back to), why can't other schools too? To go back to why 9th graders are an advantage, it's as simple as they're older. Maybe it's just my personal experience, but I'm taking chemistry as a freshman, and this class has given me far more knowledge on chemistry than I had in middle school. Though I'm not someone doing chemistry events, a 9th grader in a similar position as me on a Div B team could do much better on these chemistry events than other middle schoolers. As for me, some things as simple as being able to join high school clubs like HOSA and just have more motivation to study topics for my future (everything starts to matter now!) have made me far better at biology than I was as an 8th grader. I do bio events and I feel as a high school freshman, I would do better on these events than someone still in grades 6-8. Many schools (like my personal middle school) don't allow 9th graders to participate at the Div B level and my state itself (Oregon) has somewhat of an unwritten rule where this can't happen. As a result, the Oregon Div B qualifier for nats is always at a bit of a disadvantage compared to the top schools. By keeping high school freshmen exempt from Div B competition, this disadvantage for certain schools is eliminated.

To wrap up, I'm not saying having 9th graders is immediately skyrocketing your team and making them extremely competitive, but I am saying they provide enough of an advantage for select teams that they should probably stick to Div C competition. With enough practice and study, middle schoolers could be just as good if not better than high schoolers at some events, so why not just stick with them? Adding 9th graders into the mix robs some younger students of an opportunity to learn the ropes and have fun with science.

P.S. This is just my personal opinion, but I could see many other views on the issue. Take this with a grain of salt; you're free to have different points of view!

For a freshman, you're a pretty smart guy. And as far as getting 6th graders interested? What is the largest SciOly division in the country? Div B? Div C? Wrong and wrong... it is Div A! In fact, Div A is larger than Div B & C combined!! (I learned this at SOSI two years ago). And many regions that have Div A running also have great Div B with winning Div C teams going to Nats! Maybe if we focus on Div A more, we'd get better Div B competitors and wouldn't need to stack the deck with 9th graders. (BTW we - NYC - just started running a Div A two years ago at our Regionals!)

While I agree it's important to get people interested in the olympiad at an early age, I don't think it's always feasible everywhere in the country, meaning that "stacking the deck (though I disagree with this being game breaking)" is completely unnecessary. In rural areas (Wisconsin, for example), it is already hard enough to arrange B tournaments, let alone A tournaments. I also would like to point out that some middle schools have 9th graders in middle school, which I think would be weird to make them compete for a high school they've never attended. Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

Edit for 2 more cents: This same competitive edge is also present when you compare seniors to freshmen competing in C. You can't possibly expect them to contend. This just shows that the system across the board is not perfect, nor will it ever be. As a freshman, I competed on the Division C team, and definitely felt outmatched in every facet of SO. This was frustrating because I knew I could work at it, but the results would just never show up. This is where I see the advantage in having a division B 9th grade crew. Bear in mind that teams choose whether or not 9th graders stay in B or go to C. If you think your team is outmatched in Division B, would you consider bringing 5 9th graders back? That's your choice.

[TheRealLM]

While I agree it's important to get people interested in the olympiad at an early age, I don't think it's always feasible everywhere in the country, meaning that "stacking the deck (though I disagree with this being game breaking)" is completely unnecessary. In rural areas (Wisconsin, for example), it is already hard enough to arrange B tournaments, let alone A tournaments. I also would like to point out that some middle schools have 9th graders in middle school, which I think would be weird to make them compete for a high school they've never attended. Just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

Edit for 2 more cents: This same competitive edge is also present when you compare seniors to freshmen competing in C. You can't possibly expect them to contend. This just shows that the system across the board is not perfect, nor will it ever be. As a freshman, I competed on the Division C team, and definitely felt outmatched in every facet of SO. This was frustrating because I knew I could work at it, but the results would just never show up. This is where I see the advantage in having a division B 9th grade crew. Bear in mind that teams choose whether or not 9th graders stay in B or go to C. If you think your team is outmatched in Division B, would you consider bringing 5 9th graders back? That's your choice.

I totally agree that running Div A tournaments would be really hard for some states (like even Oregon), but I think it could be a really cool effort! As for how it would be weird for 9th graders in middle school to compete for a high school they've never attended, I think it's kinda the same for incoming 6th graders to middle school and 9th graders to high school as well. Both these groups are also brand new to their school, but they'll eventually adapt. And I see your point about seniors having a competitive edge compared to freshmen, but I feel that's just something we can't polish up. In that sense seniors > juniors > sophomores > freshmen, but SciOly isn't an individual competition by grade. It's a team competition with some "age group boundaries", and I just feel the age groups would be best if grouped the most traditional way. Keeping Div B with middle school boundaries (traditionally 6-8) and Div C with high school boundaries (traditionally 9-12) is what I see as the fairest. Besides, it's not like all freshmen are worse than all seniors. Some extremely smart and talented freshmen are the best members on their team, even when it only consists of others older than them. Older and more experienced partners can also really help further learning for freshmen (or carry them through the events ). I also understand that schools are allowed to bring back 9th graders, but many schools/coaches don't do so. They like to stick with the people who currently attend the school and normally, that's kids in the 6th-8th grade. Just because students want schools to allow 9th graders to compete and be more competitive doesn't mean it happens. I'm sure most students want to have 9th graders on their team, but schools/coaches are often against the idea, and they make the final decision. IMO, the playing field would just be more even if the groupings were 6-8 for Div B and 9-12 for Div C, but like Benny says, the grouping system will never be truly perfect. Though I personally don't know of many 7-9 schools, this change would definitely hit them the hardest. They would both need students from 6th grade to join them and their 9th graders would have to join the local high school. So overall, after a bit of deliberation, do I think 9th graders should be allowed to participate in Div B? No, I don't believe so. It provides an advantage to teams who are able to utilize them while also disadvantaging teams who aren't. However, I think actually implementing a rule like this could really hurt the schools that are in the minority.