9th Graders in Division B

[jimmy-bond]

At Highlands Intermediate School (12th & 13th in recent years), a 7-8 middle school, they use 9th graders every year. Most other middle schools in Hawaii are 6-8, so their 8th graders are just as experienced as our 9th graders, which puts them as a disadvantage. Given that, the 9th graders pull the bulk of the weight and are required to be 1st place on the team in most of, if not all of, their events. They also try to mentor the younger students and prepare them to do the heavy lifting the next year. With all that said, 9th graders are a fundamental part in our team and HIS would be nowhere where they are now without them. Although, they only have a couple returning ninth graders next year so the structure may change.

[NSCDS3RdCaptain]

I do not believe that Marie Murphy or SAA use 9th graders. MM has gotten 12th in 2019, 8th in 2016-2017, 6th in 2015, 3rd in 2013, 2nd in 2011-2012, and 5th in 2010. SAA got 14th in 2014 and 18th in 2018. DW is a feeder for Stevenson, and Marie Murphy is a feeder for New Trier. SAA is a PK-8 private school.

[sciolyperson1]

http://www.illinoisolympiad.org/team-qu ... tions.html

"If a Division B school does invite 9th graders back to participate as part of the team, it is NOT permitted to have a JV team for that school year. The school principal MUST sign off on the team roster acknowledging that all students invited back were previously enrolled in that school. ISO has the right to require proof of student school history."

That may be one of the reasons why 9th graders aren't used in Illinois teams - just a guess.

[Name]

http://www.illinoisolympiad.org/team-qu ... tions.html

"If a Division B school does invite 9th graders back to participate as part of the team, it is NOT permitted to have a JV team for that school year. The school principal MUST sign off on the team roster acknowledging that all students invited back were previously enrolled in that school. ISO has the right to require proof of student school history."

That may be one of the reasons why 9th graders aren't used in Illinois teams - just a guess.

NY and probably most other states have a policy where 9th graders have to choose between either division B or C and once they compete at one level they cannot compete at the other level for that year. The policy is to DQ every event the person did in the second tournament if caught but it seems like they don't really check and there are people who compete in both divisions regardless.

[Umaroth]

http://www.illinoisolympiad.org/team-qu ... tions.html

"If a Division B school does invite 9th graders back to participate as part of the team, it is NOT permitted to have a JV team for that school year. The school principal MUST sign off on the team roster acknowledging that all students invited back were previously enrolled in that school. ISO has the right to require proof of student school history."

That may be one of the reasons why 9th graders aren't used in Illinois teams - just a guess.

NY and probably most other states have a policy where 9th graders have to choose between either division B or C and once they compete at one level they cannot compete at the other level for that year. The policy is to DQ every event the person did in the second tournament if caught but it seems like they don't really check and there are people who compete in both divisions regardless.

This is how it is supposed to be, but like you said, some tournaments don't seem to check, even nats level teams. There definitely was one semi-notable case this season where a div b competitor switched to div c for nats because their div b team didn't make it and they thought their coach knew better than NSO so they announced it on the forums.

[aakoala]

My school is a 6-8 school, with the 9th graders feeding into Pioneer HS. I don't really understand why a team would have people that don't go to their school represent them, but having students from 6-8th grade has recently put us into the top 20 at nationals. Having 9th graders would definitely improve our chances of making it to nats, but it doesn't have the same spirit of the competition.

[Jehosaphat]

My school is a 6-8 school, with the 9th graders feeding into Pioneer HS. I don't really understand why a team would have people that don't go to their school represent them, but having students from 6-8th grade has recently put us into the top 20 at nationals. Having 9th graders would definitely improve our chances of making it to nats, but it doesn't have the same spirit of the competition.

Mine is the same way. I did the whole go back down to middle school thing, and for me it was huge because our high school team was basically nonexistent until this year. I placed in every single event at regionals (in a very competitive area), but was unable to go to states due to scheduling conflicts between my high school life and my middle school team. I really don't like the 9th grader rule, as it kind of invalidates your first couple of years in B, as there are kids light years ahead of you simply because they have been there for longer. It limits participation and makes it wayyyy easier to go off on your own, rather than collaborate with teammates.

[drcubbin]

(**Disclaimer: We are a 6-8 middle school and have occasionally been able to pull one 9th grader back to compete again, but more than likely none).
While I have tried my best to remain objective about this subject, I have to believe that consistently (year after year) having five 9th graders on a middle school team definitely tilts the scales. I know this because any returning 9th graders are usually "ringers" (not really ringers, but I am lost for a less offensive term) I remember hearing those in 7-9 middle schools say, "but if we don't use our 9th graders on the team, then we only have 7th and 8th graders competing." I do get it, but there are likely very few 6th graders (usually!) who make it to States or Nationals anyway. So the vast majority of Div B teams from 6-8 middle schools are (typically) composed of 7th and 8th graders.
I wonder, if a poll was taken, how many teams that make it to Nationals typically use the "five 9th graders" rule?
To prove this point, (call it an ExpD event) I would like for one year to not allow any Div B team to use any 9th graders on their team and see if any of the 6-8 teams have the chance to break through the Nationals "glass ceiling".
Rules are rules and we will continue to plug away, but...

[drcubbin]

http://www.illinoisolympiad.org/team-qu ... tions.html

"If a Division B school does invite 9th graders back to participate as part of the team, it is NOT permitted to have a JV team for that school year. The school principal MUST sign off on the team roster acknowledging that all students invited back were previously enrolled in that school. ISO has the right to require proof of student school history."

That may be one of the reasons why 9th graders aren't used in Illinois teams - just a guess.

NY and probably most other states have a policy where 9th graders have to choose between either division B or C and once they compete at one level they cannot compete at the other level for that year. The policy is to DQ every event the person did in the second tournament if caught but it seems like they don't really check and there are people who compete in both divisions regardless.

Wow, I never heard of that happening (9th graders competing in both B & C), but I always believe (or like to believe) that SciOly kids are more ethical than most. It has just been my experience.

[EastStroudsburg13]

(**Disclaimer: We are a 6-8 middle school and have occasionally been able to pull one 9th grader back to compete again, but more than likely none).
While I have tried my best to remain objective about this subject, I have to believe that consistently (year after year) having five 9th graders on a middle school team definitely tilts the scales. I know this because any returning 9th graders are usually "ringers" (not really ringers, but I am lost for a less offensive term) I remember hearing those in 7-9 middle schools say, "but if we don't use our 9th graders on the team, then we only have 7th and 8th graders competing." I do get it, but there are likely very few 6th graders (usually!) who make it to States or Nationals anyway. So the vast majority of Div B teams from 6-8 middle schools are (typically) composed of 7th and 8th graders.
I wonder, if a poll was taken, how many teams that make it to Nationals typically use the "five 9th graders" rule?
To prove this point, (call it an ExpD event) I would like for one year to not allow any Div B team to use any 9th graders on their team and see if any of the 6-8 teams have the chance to break through the Nationals "glass ceiling".
Rules are rules and we will continue to plug away, but...

I get your point, but I take issue with the underlined part. If you're a small team at a 7-9 school, the concern is not really making states or nationals, but merely trying to stay afloat. If 9th graders are banned, you're effectively reducing the possible student pool by 1/3. Is a small team going to be able to get 6th graders to come to the school to compete? I have my doubts.

Overall, as someone who came from a 6-8 school that almost never had 9th graders, I have trouble seeing an issue with the rule. It permits all teams to use 9th graders, and expands the possible competitor pool for schools of different grade distributions. Reducing the available pool of competitors just to acquire a theoretically more even playing field for the teams at the top is not the move, IMO.