9th Graders in Division B

[SOcoachB]

Just curious about something.

Of the teams that often place in the top 10-15 at Nationals, how many & which ones have 9th graders as team members?

[Unome]

Just curious about something.

Of the teams that often place in the top 10-15 at Nationals, how many & which ones have 9th graders as team members?

From what I've heard, most but not all.

[sciolyperson1]

Just curious about something.

Of the teams that often place in the top 10-15 at Nationals, how many & which ones have 9th graders as team members?

From what I've heard, most but not all.

Out of the top 10 Div B teams, 7-9 / 10 of them use 9th graders. Daniel Wright does not, and I'm not quite sure about Longfellow or Lakeshore.

Out of these, Gelinas may or may not be the only one which is a school that has 6th-9th graders. Because of this, their 9th graders don't participate in their HS program, and rather do DIv B instead.

[SOcoachB]

Out of the top 10 Div B teams, 7-9 / 10 of them use 9th graders. Daniel Wright does not, and I'm not quite sure about Longfellow or Lakeshore.

Lakeshore appears to be an interesting case. It's a school for grades 7 & 8. Another school in the district, White Pines, has grades 5 & 6, and Grand Haven High School has grades 9-12.

They make two division B teams out of these schools. White Pines team consists of 6th graders and 7th graders from Lakeshore who attended White Pines. Lakeshore's team consists of 8th graders, 9th graders from the high school, and 7th graders that did not attend White Pines.

[drcubbin]

I'm glad someone brought this up as it is a "touchy" topic at best. We are a 6-8 middle school, and while we have had 9th graders on the team in the past, it has not always been fair to the team since 9th graders often have high school obligations and cannot devote as much time to practice. Also, here in NYC, the high schools are often a long distance to travel after school and the 9th graders end up practicing for only a short period of time with their partners. It is different from many of the suburbs we compete against where the high school is directly across the street from the middle school. We do not have those logistics - ever. So this year, we made the decision to not include any 9th graders on the team, but instead focus on building up the 6th and 7th grade students.

And since we are a Div B school, we are consistently up against teams that are composed of 1/3 Div C students (9th graders) who are usually almost finished with their first year of high school chemistry, physics or Earth science. Anyone who has taught both middle and high school can tell you the level of maturity and dedication to study increases exponentially in 9th grade (especially for those who have done SciOly before - and the majority of them have). Every year I end up telling our 8th graders, "If we only had you one more year, you would be taking 1st Place across the board (especially on the Div B level events). It would be interesting to see data on grade (6-9) vs. medal placement. I would venture a guess that - in general (don't hold me to exceptions) - the higher the grade, the higher the medal placement.

I know there are 7-9 schools that say, "What about us? Should we be limited to only 7th and 8th graders?" I say no, feel free to have as many 6th graders as you like from your elementary school practice with the team. After all, the day will come when those 6th graders will be the foundation of your team. And I would be curious to know how many teams are 7-9 as opposed to 6-8. I would venture a guess that the latter far outweigh the former.

I recently read the article posted in scioly.org that showed the year to year rankings of the consistently top schools. Just a guess, but I have to believe the majority of these consistently top-ranked schools are going in - again, in general - with the maximum # of 9th graders on their teams. I'm not sure how many other Div B coaches feel this way, but I do believe if they capped Div B at 8th grade, it would provide a much more level playing field and you would have a better idea of who is actually a "top Div B team" and who is a "top 2/3's Div B and 1/3 Div C team". Again, this is not a complaint. I'm just sitting around having morning coffee and doing the math.

[sciolyperson1]

I'm glad someone brought this up as it is a "touchy" topic at best. We are a 6-8 middle school, and while we have had 9th graders on the team in the past, it has not always been fair to the team since 9th graders often have high school obligations and cannot devote as much time to practice.

What about other schools' 9th graders? Every freshman always has similar high school obligations, so shouldn't they all have the same disadvantage?

[Unome]

I'm glad someone brought this up as it is a "touchy" topic at best. We are a 6-8 middle school, and while we have had 9th graders on the team in the past, it has not always been fair to the team since 9th graders often have high school obligations and cannot devote as much time to practice. Also, here in NYC, the high schools are often a long distance to travel after school and the 9th graders end up practicing for only a short period of time with their partners. It is different from many of the suburbs we compete against where the high school is directly across the street from the middle school. We do not have those logistics - ever. So this year, we made the decision to not include any 9th graders on the team, but instead focus on building up the 6th and 7th grade students.

And since we are a Div B school, we are consistently up against teams that are composed of 1/3 Div C students (9th graders) who are usually almost finished with their first year of high school chemistry, physics or Earth science. Anyone who has taught both middle and high school can tell you the level of maturity and dedication to study increases exponentially in 9th grade (especially for those who have done SciOly before - and the majority of them have). Every year I end up telling our 8th graders, "If we only had you one more year, you would be taking 1st Place across the board (especially on the Div B level events). It would be interesting to see data on grade (6-9) vs. medal placement. I would venture a guess that - in general (don't hold me to exceptions) - the higher the grade, the higher the medal placement.

I know there are 7-9 schools that say, "What about us? Should we be limited to only 7th and 8th graders?" I say no, feel free to have as many 6th graders as you like from your elementary school practice with the team. After all, the day will come when those 6th graders will be the foundation of your team. And I would be curious to know how many teams are 7-9 as opposed to 6-8. I would venture a guess that the latter far outweigh the former.

I recently read the article posted in scioly.org that showed the year to year rankings of the consistently top schools. Just a guess, but I have to believe the majority of these consistently top-ranked schools are going in - again, in general - with the maximum # of 9th graders on their teams. I'm not sure how many other Div B coaches feel this way, but I do believe if they capped Div B at 8th grade, it would provide a much more level playing field and you would have a better idea of who is actually a "top Div B team" and who is a "top 2/3's Div B and 1/3 Div C team". Again, this is not a complaint. I'm just sitting around having morning coffee and doing the math.

I believe it's Daniel Wright who is the most well-known top team without 9th graders.

[drcubbin]

I'm glad someone brought this up as it is a "touchy" topic at best. We are a 6-8 middle school, and while we have had 9th graders on the team in the past, it has not always been fair to the team since 9th graders often have high school obligations and cannot devote as much time to practice.

What about other schools' 9th graders? Every freshman always has similar high school obligations, so shouldn't they all have the same disadvantage?

I guess you are referring to those 9th graders in a 7-9 middle school. Just my opinion, but if you are in 9th grade (7-9 or HS), you are undoubtedly taking chem, physics and some level of more advanced math and you should be competing with HS teams. But... you will find that some HS's don't even let 9th graders participate a team because they want to play the more seasoned players. So I am proposing teams should be decided by grade level, which many are not because most middle schools (just a guess) do not have - or do not have access to - 9th graders leaving an unequal playing field. It is sort of like a middleweight fighting a heavyweight, or a lightweight fighting a middleweight.

[drcubbin]

I believe it's Daniel Wright who is the most well-known top team without 9th graders.

I know they do extremely well, and I am guessing they are the exception, rather than the rule. It would be nice to hear from both B & C coaches to see if this makes a difference (having or not having 9th graders on their teams.)

[sciolyperson1]

I'm glad someone brought this up as it is a "touchy" topic at best. We are a 6-8 middle school, and while we have had 9th graders on the team in the past, it has not always been fair to the team since 9th graders often have high school obligations and cannot devote as much time to practice.

What about other schools' 9th graders? Every freshman always has similar high school obligations, so shouldn't they all have the same disadvantage?

I guess you are referring to those 9th graders in a 7-9 middle school. Just my opinion, but if you are in 9th grade (7-9 or HS), you are undoubtedly taking chem, physics and some level of more advanced math and you should be competing with HS teams. But... you will find that some HS's don't even let 9th graders participate a team because they want to play the more seasoned players. So I am proposing teams should be decided by grade level, which many are not because most middle schools (just a guess) do not have - or do not have access to - 9th graders leaving an unequal playing field. It is sort of like a middleweight fighting a heavyweight, or a lightweight fighting a middleweight.

Many of our 8th graders perform just as well, if not better, than some 9th graders.