9th Graders in Division B

[stenopushispidus]

Most junior high schools top out at 9th grade.

Not to be contrary, but according to InsideSchools, "Most middle schools serve children in grades 6 to 8, but a few start in 5th or 7th grade." Or we could go to the bible of valid internet reliability (Wikipedia) that says, "Most middle schools in the United States cover grades 6–8, but sometimes 7-9, 7-8 or even 5-8." Most top out at 8th and that is where the limit should be when assembling equal teams. If most topped at 9th, it would still behoove the organizers to accommodate all, rather than some.

"Not to be contrary" --> proceeds to be contrary. Don't pretend that you're not being pedantic, when your intention is very clearly to be pedantic.

And remember, this is not one or two 9th graders, but currently five are permitted to make up 1/3 the team of many of our "elite" middle school Science Olympiad teams. And yes, I will agree that you will find more "junior high schools" running up to 9th, but last I checked Division B is "middle school", not junior high school.

Ignoring how rude and condescending the phrasing "last I checked" is, the rules manual does not actually say that Division B is "middle school". It says "Grades 6-9". So you're operating under a completely false truth here. Since many junior high schools go up to 9th, and fall under the Division B umbrella, 9th graders are and should continue to be allowed to compete in Division B on a limited basis. Period.

Now if they really wanted to make it fair, instead of assigning 9th graders to middle school, they should just change the designation or rule that would allow 9th graders who will be attending a 10-12 high school to let the 9th graders participate in their Div C competition. Does that sound reasonable? I'm sure we can find some middle ground here

There is no need for such a rule, because this is already allowed. Obviously you know this already, you're just playing devil's advocate.

I have no more patience for your shrouded wording and hidden meanings. Don't put on a fake aura of friendliness when you are so very clearly trying (and failing) to make me look foolish. As far as I'm concerned, neither you nor I have anything more to add to this conversation.

[drcubbin]

Most junior high schools top out at 9th grade.

Not to be contrary, but according to InsideSchools, "Most middle schools serve children in grades 6 to 8, but a few start in 5th or 7th grade." Or we could go to the bible of valid internet reliability (Wikipedia) that says, "Most middle schools in the United States cover grades 6–8, but sometimes 7-9, 7-8 or even 5-8." Most top out at 8th and that is where the limit should be when assembling equal teams. If most topped at 9th, it would still behoove the organizers to accommodate all, rather than some.

"Not to be contrary" --> proceeds to be contrary. Don't pretend that you're not being pedantic, when your intention is very clearly to be pedantic.

And remember, this is not one or two 9th graders, but currently five are permitted to make up 1/3 the team of many of our "elite" middle school Science Olympiad teams. And yes, I will agree that you will find more "junior high schools" running up to 9th, but last I checked Division B is "middle school", not junior high school.

Ignoring how rude and condescending the phrasing "last I checked" is, the rules manual does not actually say that Division B is "middle school". It says "Grades 6-9". So you're operating under a completely false truth here. Since many junior high schools go up to 9th, and fall under the Division B umbrella, 9th graders are and should continue to be allowed to compete in Division B on a limited basis. Period.

Now if they really wanted to make it fair, instead of assigning 9th graders to middle school, they should just change the designation or rule that would allow 9th graders who will be attending a 10-12 high school to let the 9th graders participate in their Div C competition. Does that sound reasonable? I'm sure we can find some middle ground here

There is no need for such a rule, because this is already allowed. Obviously you know this already, you're just playing devil's advocate.

I have no more patience for your shrouded wording and hidden meanings. Don't put on a fake aura of friendliness when you are so very clearly trying (and failing) to make me look foolish. As far as I'm concerned, neither you nor I have anything more to add to this conversation.

East, I have followed your posts for quite some time and I fully respect your ideas and your opinions. I mean no disrespect by anything I have said, but yes, I am playing devil's advocate which is a valid stance to take in a discussion. And if you know me, being fake is not one of my endearing qualities To me, and many others, this is a valid topic of discussion. I am neither shrouding my words nor hiding their meanings. I jumped into this discussion because it seems to be the elephant in the room for many regions. Regardless of where you stand this is why they have age/weight limits in so many sports competitions. When I was younger and boxed as a light heavyweight, the limit was 178 lbs. If you were over you forfeited the bout for you would have an unfair advantage over your opponent. They didn't care about your height or frame - 178 was the limit. Heavier boxers pack a harder punch. And 9th graders know more than 8th graders.
Grade level is definitely a game-changer. Regardless of how we do tonight (fingers crossed) imagine if all teams with five ninth-graders were to suddenly have to fill those spots with 8th graders. Would that change the outcome? And honestly, I am surprised there are not more 7-9 folks chiming in here.
And one last point. Here in NYC, when (SciOly) students graduate from middle school, they typically go onto specialized high schools (Stuy, Townsend Harris, Bronx Sci, etc...) that are usually located far from their middle schools and precludes them from competing with their Div B teams. In more suburban areas (or some cities) the middle school is in the same building. To compete with your Div B team, you just need to walk to the building next door or down the street. Not all schools have this built-in convenience. So I'll end with this and let's see if we hear from some of our teams who are able to have 9th graders make up 1/3 of their teams and if they would be willing to let them go. (And to be honest, I did not know that 9th graders from a 7-9 school are permitted to compete on a high school team they have never attended. Is that really true?)

[vye904]

Here are some thoughts from a 9th grader who goes to a 7-9 junior high.

If i had the choice to compete in Division C, I would be right now. But I would rather not take the 1 hour 11 minute walk across 2 major streets and a highway from my own school to my high school just to participate in Division C, especially when the school i go to offers a scio program. And I live in the most suburban part of Long Island. For a lot of 7-9 schools, 9th graders don't have the choice to participate in Division C. Restricting 9th graders from Division B would prevent a large group of people from competing in scioly during their 9th grade year. If Division B was 6-8, I wouldn't be competing this year, and I doubt I would come back for 10th grade at my high school. While some schools have merged middle school and high school buildings, this is not the case for everyone, which is why Division B allows 6-9 in the first place. Division B being 6-9 accommodates most school district structures, allowing more people to participate. IF every district in the US had 6-8 middle schools, I would completely agree that Division B should not allow 9th graders. Obviously, this is not the case.

Regarding transportation:
The same way 9th graders would have transportation problems going to their middle school, 9th graders can have problems going to their high school. It cannot be assumed that all 7-9 schools are located close to their respective high schools, and that all 9th graders would be able to compete at their high school, because it's simply not true. Again, there are issues with both 9th graders going down for Division B and 9th graders going up for Division C, which is why 9th graders are allowed in both.

Regarding experience:
I began scio in 8th grade. At the start of 9th grade, I had the same amount of "experience" as someone who competed in 6th grade and returned for 7th, or someone who competed in 7th and returned for 8th. 9th graders who started in 7th at 7-9 junior highs may have 2 years of experience, the same way an 8th grader would if they started in 6th grade. Experience is also a reason why event rotations exist. A 9th grader or any competitor in general can only do so much with their previous knowledge for new events that rotate in.

Regarding 9th graders knowing more than others in general:
I can agree that 9th graders have more basic knowledge due to more science classes. However, everything relevant learned in 9th grade biology can be found online and in google searches. I'm in 9th grade biology, and we only spent maybe 2 weeks on things relevant to heredity. The topics were simplified, and I had already known them through my studying in 8th grade. During the few weeks we spent on food science related topics, my 9th grade friend already knew everything because she studied it in 7th and 8th grade. 9th grade biology is the absolute basics of only SOME events, and really doesn’t improve someone drastically if they already studied for their event. It can also be argued that 8th graders would know more earth science than a 6th grader (assuming earth science is taught in 8th grade). The time and devotion spent on studying is imo, more relevant than someone's grade level. Anyone can pirate a Campbell’s Biology textbook, study well, and learn more from it than you would in 9th grade bio; it doesn't matter if you're in 6th or 9th grade. At Gelinas and other schools I have friends at, I know multiple 7th and 8th graders who can outperform 9th graders. I have never touched physics or any scioly physics event, and I would be completely destroyed by any 7th grader who has even partially studied machines. Even in earth science events, despite me taking 8th grade earth science last year, I wouldn't be able to answer more than 2 questions on a dynamic planet test. If I studied for dynamic and put time into it, that would be a different story.


During the 2019-2020 season at Gelinas, we had 18 non-tech tryouts. Of these, 13 were won by an 8th grader. Of the 5 tech event tryouts, 2 were won by an 8th grader, and 1 was won by a 7th grader. At Rustin 2020, our B team placed 10th overall, with one 9th grader (who only had 1 or 2 events and absolutely hated scio), and multiple 7th graders. At the ELI regional in 2020, our B team placed 3rd overall behind Gelinas A and Murphy A, with the same predominantly 7th/8th grade team. Before anyone says our B team didn't do as well as the A team: I mean, obviously. The A team had the better 8th graders and the B team had everyone who did worse than the A team at tryouts.

In my personal experience, most of my improvement was during my 8th grade year. I started with 13 points on my road tryout, and was able to improve to eventually placing decently at tournaments. Since the end of 8th grade, I doubt I've improved at all, and certainly not to the magnitude I improved in all my events during 8th grade.

Yes, I am biased since I would be disappointed if I was not able to compete as a 9th grader. And I will not disagree that 9th graders can have a large advantage in some scenarios, however, an 8th grader who puts in the time can be just as good and successful. Being a 9th grader != automatic success and knowledge.

[aakoala]

Here are some thoughts from a 9th grader who goes to a 7-9 junior high.

If i had the choice to compete in Division C, I would be right now. But I would rather not take the 1 hour 11 minute walk across 2 major streets and a highway from my own school to my high school just to participate in Division C, especially when the school i go to offers a scio program. And I live in the most suburban part of Long Island. For a lot of 7-9 schools, 9th graders don't have the choice to participate in Division C. Restricting 9th graders from Division B would prevent a large group of people from competing in scioly during their 9th grade year. If Division B was 6-8, I wouldn't be competing this year, and I doubt I would come back for 10th grade at my high school. While some schools have merged middle school and high school buildings, this is not the case for everyone, which is why Division B allows 6-9 in the first place. Division B being 6-9 accommodates most school district structures, allowing more people to participate. IF every district in the US had 6-8 middle schools, I would completely agree that Division B should not allow 9th graders. Obviously, this is not the case.

Regarding transportation:
The same way 9th graders would have transportation problems going to their middle school, 9th graders can have problems going to their high school. It cannot be assumed that all 7-9 schools are located close to their respective high schools, and that all 9th graders would be able to compete at their high school, because it's simply not true. Again, there are issues with both 9th graders going down for Division B and 9th graders going up for Division C, which is why 9th graders are allowed in both.

Regarding experience:
I began scio in 8th grade. At the start of 9th grade, I had the same amount of "experience" as someone who competed in 6th grade and returned for 7th, or someone who competed in 7th and returned for 8th. 9th graders who started in 7th at 7-9 junior highs may have 2 years of experience, the same way an 8th grader would if they started in 6th grade. Experience is also a reason why event rotations exist. A 9th grader or any competitor in general can only do so much with their previous knowledge for new events that rotate in.

Regarding 9th graders knowing more than others in general:
I can agree that 9th graders have more basic knowledge due to more science classes. However, everything relevant learned in 9th grade biology can be found online and in google searches. I'm in 9th grade biology, and we only spent maybe 2 weeks on things relevant to heredity. The topics were simplified, and I had already known them through my studying in 8th grade. During the few weeks we spent on food science related topics, my 9th grade friend already knew everything because she studied it in 7th and 8th grade. 9th grade biology is the absolute basics of only SOME events, and really doesn’t improve someone drastically if they already studied for their event. It can also be argued that 8th graders would know more earth science than a 6th grader (assuming earth science is taught in 8th grade). The time and devotion spent on studying is imo, more relevant than someone's grade level. Anyone can pirate a Campbell’s Biology textbook, study well, and learn more from it than you would in 9th grade bio; it doesn't matter if you're in 6th or 9th grade. At Gelinas and other schools I have friends at, I know multiple 7th and 8th graders who can outperform 9th graders. I have never touched physics or any scioly physics event, and I would be completely destroyed by any 7th grader who has even partially studied machines. Even in earth science events, despite me taking 8th grade earth science last year, I wouldn't be able to answer more than 2 questions on a dynamic planet test. If I studied for dynamic and put time into it, that would be a different story.


During the 2019-2020 season at Gelinas, we had 18 non-tech tryouts. Of these, 13 were won by an 8th grader. Of the 5 tech event tryouts, 2 were won by an 8th grader, and 1 was won by a 7th grader. At Rustin 2020, our B team placed 10th overall, with one 9th grader (who only had 1 or 2 events and absolutely hated scio), and multiple 7th graders. At the ELI regional in 2020, our B team placed 3rd overall behind Gelinas A and Murphy A, with the same predominantly 7th/8th grade team. Before anyone says our B team didn't do as well as the A team: I mean, obviously. The A team had the better 8th graders and the B team had everyone who did worse than the A team at tryouts.

In my personal experience, most of my improvement was during my 8th grade year. I started with 13 points on my road tryout, and was able to improve to eventually placing decently at tournaments. Since the end of 8th grade, I doubt I've improved at all, and certainly not to the magnitude I improved in all my events during 8th grade.

Yes, I am bias since I would be disappointed if I was not able to compete as a 9th grader. And I will not disagree that 9th graders can have a large advantage in some scenarios, however, an 8th grader who puts in the time can be just as good and successful. Being a 9th grader != automatic success and knowledge.

Extremely well said! I understand that it would take a long time to travel to your highschool (1 hour 11 minutes ) and I now think that 9th graders who don't have a choice between B and C should choose the one that is more accomodating. However, I believe that 9th graders that attend their highschool with 10th, 11th, and 12th graders should compete with their school (Division C). It just doesn't feel ethical. You also mentioned rotations, however some events don't rotate (Crime, Road, ExpD, although I do know that they are not entirely "knowledge" events).

[vye904]

You also mentioned rotations, however some events don't rotate (Crime, Road, ExpD, although I do know that they are not entirely "knowledge" events).

I was thinking about this too. NSO structured the scioly event slate to be like that, an 8th grader could do disease for 3 years and a senior could do disease for 7 years. Everyone starts learning from the ground up, no matter what, there are always going to be people who have been doing the event for longer than you. That doesn't mean you can't surpass them in ability and that doesn't make them unbeatable. The people who have been doing a permanent event for so many years also had to start as a new competitor against older and more experienced competitors. I honestly don't think permanent events are a valid argument regarding 9th graders in Division B, since it's not like erasing 9th graders from Division B would change the fact that incoming 6th graders have to compete with 8th graders in their 3rd year of blank event. This is just the nature of permanent events, new people will have to compete with more experienced people.

[sneepity]

I'm kind of late to this but I wanted to say that, honestly, sure. Being a year older can give you more experience and give your team an "edge". But I think it depends more on how willing and how much time someone spends studying. You can have a lazy 9th grader not willing to do any work and a super enthusiastic 8th grader willing to put in extra time and effort. If anything, I would say 8th graders are actually benefitted... they have more time to study for Scioly, unlike freshmen who are suddenly bombarded with more work.

Also, wishful thinking that your normal school classes will actually even cover *at least* 1/4ths of what you're supposed to know for scioly comps. Disclaimer: they won't at all. I'm taking bio this year and we have barely anything based off of human anatomy. That's because classes cater to people who just want those grades and scioly is for competitors who want to learn more. So expecting 9th graders to know more just because they have more advanced classes is kinda wack because competitors are supposed to learn everything on their own anyway.

I'm not denying that in *some* aspects 9th graders can have an advantage, but no, not really. They're essential to schools that go 7th-9th and still want to compete in tournaments, because without them, the schools would lose a huge number of club numbers. Not to mention that it's usually 9th graders who have advice and get elected for captain.

[vye904]

I agree with the people arguing that 9th graders should be allowed to compete in Div. B or C. There's no inherent advantage to being a 9th grader over being in middle school unless you've been doing SciOly for more years; high school courses marginally help and the advantage is negated by the heavier workload, almost all of which is not related to a student's events. Regarding the opportunity to have more experience, the advantage of a smaller disadvantage for new people is outweighed by the sheer number of middle school 9th graders who could not compete at all. I'm not sure why distance between middle and high school is being used as an argument for forbidding Div. B 9th graders; commute time goes both ways, and expecting other 9th graders to drive for an hour because it's unfair your 9th graders can't does not align with the goal of SciOly - getting more young people interested in science.

[drcubbin]

I agree with the people arguing that 9th graders should be allowed to compete in Div. B or C. There's no inherent advantage to being a 9th grader over being in middle school unless you've been doing SciOly for more years; high school courses marginally help and the advantage is negated by the heavier workload, almost all of which is not related to a student's events. Regarding the opportunity to have more experience, the advantage of a smaller disadvantage for new people is outweighed by the sheer number of middle school 9th graders who could not compete at all. I'm not sure why distance between middle and high school is being used as an argument for forbidding Div. B 9th graders; commute time goes both ways, and expecting other 9th graders to drive for an hour because it's unfair your 9th graders can't does not align with the goal of SciOly - getting more young people interested in science.

I am glad there is so much feedback from this. Regarding the distance component, in NYC our kids travel sometimes 2+ hours by subway, bus, etc.. to go to their high schools (specialized which is where SciOly kids are most likely to attend). For these students to return it takes 2+ hours to get back home - or to their former middle school. Where on the Long Island (where I live) most often being able to meet is typically much easier since the middle and high schools tend to be minutes apart by car. Also, schools tend to be open for later hours in rural areas. Not so in NYC. I am not complaining, just like a level competitive playing field.

And if there is no advantage of being a 9th grader, then why do those who can bring them back, do bring them back?

[stenopushispidus]

I agree with the people arguing that 9th graders should be allowed to compete in Div. B or C. There's no inherent advantage to being a 9th grader over being in middle school unless you've been doing SciOly for more years; high school courses marginally help and the advantage is negated by the heavier workload, almost all of which is not related to a student's events. Regarding the opportunity to have more experience, the advantage of a smaller disadvantage for new people is outweighed by the sheer number of middle school 9th graders who could not compete at all. I'm not sure why distance between middle and high school is being used as an argument for forbidding Div. B 9th graders; commute time goes both ways, and expecting other 9th graders to drive for an hour because it's unfair your 9th graders can't does not align with the goal of SciOly - getting more young people interested in science.

I am glad there is so much feedback from this. Regarding the distance component, in NYC our kids travel sometimes 2+ hours by subway, bus, etc.. to go to their high schools (specialized which is where SciOly kids are most likely to attend). For these students to return it takes 2+ hours to get back home - or to their former middle school. Where on the Long Island (where I live) most often being able to meet is typically much easier since the middle and high schools tend to be minutes apart by car. Also, schools tend to be open for later hours in rural areas. Not so in NYC. I am not complaining, just like a level competitive playing field.

And if there is no advantage of being a 9th grader, then why do those who can bring them back, do bring them back?

I'm sorry that students in NYC have to travel so far to go to school. I still think it is unfair to mandate SciOly throughout the nation to forbid many students from competing at all for the sake of leveling the playing field in one state. As with many aspects of SciOly, there are tradeoffs between fairness and levels of involvement; you're suggesting 9th graders throughout the nation suffer along with NYC students just to make it fair for them. Your situation is not the universal situation; you, too, have advantages that other schools don't, which, if taken away from everyone, would defeat the purpose of Science Olympiad.

I said there is no inherent advantage to being a 9th grader. Surprisingly, not every 9th grader is identical. It can be very beneficial to both scores and team culture to bring back 9th graders that are experienced or performed well in middle school. These are the same reasons 8th graders tend to have an advantage over 6th graders.

[drcubbin]

I agree with the people arguing that 9th graders should be allowed to compete in Div. B or C. There's no inherent advantage to being a 9th grader over being in middle school unless you've been doing SciOly for more years; high school courses marginally help and the advantage is negated by the heavier workload, almost all of which is not related to a student's events. Regarding the opportunity to have more experience, the advantage of a smaller disadvantage for new people is outweighed by the sheer number of middle school 9th graders who could not compete at all. I'm not sure why distance between middle and high school is being used as an argument for forbidding Div. B 9th graders; commute time goes both ways, and expecting other 9th graders to drive for an hour because it's unfair your 9th graders can't does not align with the goal of SciOly - getting more young people interested in science.

I am glad there is so much feedback from this. Regarding the distance component, in NYC our kids travel sometimes 2+ hours by subway, bus, etc.. to go to their high schools (specialized which is where SciOly kids are most likely to attend). For these students to return it takes 2+ hours to get back home - or to their former middle school. Where on the Long Island (where I live) most often being able to meet is typically much easier since the middle and high schools tend to be minutes apart by car. Also, schools tend to be open for later hours in rural areas. Not so in NYC. I am not complaining, just like a level competitive playing field.

And if there is no advantage of being a 9th grader, then why do those who can bring them back, do bring them back?

I'm sorry that students in NYC have to travel so far to go to school. I still think it is unfair to mandate SciOly throughout the nation to forbid many students from competing at all for the sake of leveling the playing field in one state. As with many aspects of SciOly, there are tradeoffs between fairness and levels of involvement; you're suggesting 9th graders throughout the nation suffer along with NYC students just to make it fair for them. Your situation is not the universal situation; you, too, have advantages that other schools don't, which, if taken away from everyone, would defeat the purpose of Science Olympiad.

I said there is no inherent advantage to being a 9th grader. Surprisingly, not every 9th grader is identical. It can be very beneficial to both scores and team culture to bring back 9th graders that are experienced or performed well in middle school. These are the same reasons 8th graders tend to have an advantage over 6th graders.

Silver, I am not seeking anyone to "suffer", since in suburban/rural areas it is much easier for a 9th grader to travel to their upcoming high school than to come back to your middle school in a city environment. And remember, I am just talking... suggesting.
And I am a little skeptical that 9th graders would return and not provide any advantage. It's just a discussion folks.