Sounds Of Music C

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Re: Sounds Of Music C

Post by mjcox2000 »

Riptide wrote:
mjcox2000 wrote:How does the intonation of each of the Hornbostel-Sachs instrument types change as temperature changes? Why do they react this way?
This is a pretty interesting question. It was hard to find any conclusive answers online so most of this is just my own analysis and so some of it is probably wrong or not the correct reasoning. 
[b]Aerophone:[/b] Pretty straightforward. Aerophones function by vibrating the air - the speed of sound increases roughly linearly with temperature increase in Celsius (0.6 m/s for every 1 degree increase). Since the wavelength of the sound stays constant, the frequency must increase along with the increase in speed (and consequently decrease if the speed decreases). Another way this increase can be demonstrated is by the standard frequency formula [math]f=nv/2L[/math] (or 4L for closed). Since the velocity increases as temperature increases, the frequency also increases. Something to note is that as temperature increases, the instruments themselves would also expand slightly thus changing the length of the body. This would thus change the frequency as well since length is in the denominator. I'm pretty sure that the increase in velocity would be significantly larger than the increase in length (for example a steel flute that is half a kilogram will increase only .000018 meters at a 5 degree increase compared to a 3 m/s increase in velocity) however and thus the frequency would still increase as temperature increases. 
[b]Idiophone:[/b] Idiophones have a pretty interesting formula for calculating frequency. This equation has velocity in the numerator (like aerophones) and thus change linearly with temperature change.
[b]Chordophone:[/b] This one has me stuck a bit. For calculating frequency of strings, one is supposed to use the velocity of the string, which is given by [math]f=\sqrt \frac Tu/2L[/math]. An increase in temperature would increase the length of the string, and thus the frequency would be expected to [i]decrease[/i] since the length in the denominator is not under a square root. I'm not sure if this explanation is completely valid for Chordophones but some places online state that string instruments will become lower in pitch at higher temperatures. 
[b]Membranophones:[/b] Membraphones are very complex in their frequency calculations as many more variables are taken into account. Humidity can have a large impact on these instruments, but holding all other things constant, it appears that frequency increases as temperature increases (and vice versa). One explanation for this is that a Timpani functions by vibrating the air inside the timpani. As already mentioned, the velocity of sound increases as temperature increases and thus the frequency would increase.
terence.tan wrote:The volume of an auditorium is 12000m^3. Its reverberation time is 1.5 seconds. If the average absorption coefficient of interior surfaces is .4 Sabine/m^2. Find the area of interior surfaces.
[math]t_r=.16V/sA[/math]
[math]t_r= 1.5[/math]
 [math]V=12000[/math]
[math]s=.4[/math]
Solving for [math]A[/math] results in [math]A=3200  m^2[/math].
In some places, it seems like you got hung up on small length variations instead of other, more fundamental underlying reasons for the pitch variations.
[list]
[*]Aerophone is right -- they go sharp as they get warmer.
[*]For idiophones, they actually go flat as they warm up. This is because materials are less stiff (lower Young's modulus) with temperature increases. The stiffer an idiophone is, the higher the resonant frequency(ies) -- for example, a marimba bar's fundamental frequency varies as the square root of Young's modulus. This effect is appreciable -- my experimental tests indicate that aluminum bars go flat at a rate of half a cent per additional degree Celsius, and I confirmed with theoretical calculations involving the variation of Young's modulus with temperature to get a similar result. (Unfortunately for mallet instrument makers, resonators on mallet instruments behave like aerophones and go sharp as temperature increases, so as the bars go flat, the resonators move in the other direction and go sharp.)
[*]For chordophones, your result is right, but I think it's for the wrong reason. It's true that the string expands a small amount as it warms up, but the reason they go flat isn't the increase in length. Rather, the reason is that the metal strings expand more than the wood body (steel's coefficient of thermal expansion is about .000012/degree C, while wood's is about .000003/degree C parallel to the grain), which means that tension decreases as the strings expand more than the body.
[*]For a typical drum, it's very hard to predict the effect temperature will have on tuning. In a typical drum, the head, lugs, rim, and shell all affect pitch and will likely all have different coefficients of thermal expansion. Without knowing the particular materials, it's very difficult to know what will happen. (Timpani's resonant frequencies are established by the head tension -- not the enclosed air -- so while I see the motivation behind your hypothesis that frequency will increase with temperature, I don't think it's necessarily right.)
[*]It's understandable that you skipped electrophones -- at first sight, they might seem perfectly frequency-stable. However, they'll almost invaruably contain some crystal oscillator to establish a clock frequency, which won't hold frequency perfectly as temperature varies. The relationship is highly variable and can go in both directions -- see sample graphs on pages 9 and 10 of http://leapsecond.com/hpan/an200-2.pdf -- but barring a temperature-compensated oscillator, the frequency certainly can vary as much as a few hundred parts per million. (For reference, a cent is 578ppm.)[/list]
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Re: Sounds Of Music C

Post by smayya337 »

Let's see if these (admittedly simple) questions I made up are any good...

For these questions, assume that a) concert A4 is 440Hz and b) the speed of sound is 343 m/s. Round to two decimal places.

1. What is the length of a (straight, not curved) soprano sax in centimeters? The soprano sax is a stopped cone, and its fundamental note is an equally tempered concert Bb3.

2. The alto sax is pitched a perfect fifth lower than the soprano. If we play the fundamental tones of both instruments, what is the beat frequency in hertz?

3. What is the fundamental frequency of a clarinet with a length of 60 centimeters? What note is this, and how sharp or flat (to the nearest tenth of a cent) is it compared to equal temperament?

4. How long should the clarinet be in centimeters for the fundamental to match equal temperament?

5. What type of instrument have I been mentioning throughout this set of questions – membranophones, idiophones, chordophones, aerophones, or electrophones?
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Re: Sounds Of Music C

Post by Nydauron »

smayya337 wrote:Let's see if these (admittedly simple) questions I made up are any good...

For these questions, assume that a) concert A4 is 440Hz and b) the speed of sound is 343 m/s. Round to two decimal places.

1. What is the length of a (straight, not curved) soprano sax in centimeters? The soprano sax is a stopped cone, and its fundamental note is an equally tempered concert Bb3.

2. The alto sax is pitched a perfect fifth lower than the soprano. If we play the fundamental tones of both instruments, what is the beat frequency in hertz?

3. What is the fundamental frequency of a clarinet with a length of 60 centimeters? What note is this, and how sharp or flat (to the nearest tenth of a cent) is it compared to equal temperament?

4. How long should the clarinet be in centimeters for the fundamental to match equal temperament?

5. What type of instrument have I been mentioning throughout this set of questions – membranophones, idiophones, chordophones, aerophones, or electrophones?
1) Simple standing wave problem. Since it states the saxophone is a stopped cone, we will treat it as a closed tube.



if the wave is a fundamental wave. Now, plug in and ...



2) A perfect 5th down from B♭3 is E♭3 which has a frequency of 155.56Hz.



3) Another standing wave problem. The clarinet is an open tube.



if the wave is a fundamental wave. Plug in values...



The frequency is between C#4 and D4. So...

Setting we get...


...and...


Since frequency is closer to D4, the note is considered a D4 and is 46.8 cents flat from it.

4) Anotha one...



if the wave is a fundamental wave. Plug in values...



5) All these instruments are aerophones.

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Re: Sounds Of Music C

Post by smayya337 »

Nydauron wrote:
1) Simple standing wave problem. Since it states the saxophone is a stopped cone, we will treat it as a closed tube.



if the wave is a fundamental wave. Now, plug in and ...



2) A perfect 5th down from B♭3 is E♭3 which has a frequency of 155.56Hz.



3) Another standing wave problem. The clarinet is an open tube.



if the wave is a fundamental wave. Plug in values...



The frequency is between C#4 and D4. So...

Setting we get...


...and...


Since frequency is closer to D4, the note is considered a D4 and is 46.8 cents flat from it.

4) Anotha one...



if the wave is a fundamental wave. Plug in values...



5) All these instruments are aerophones.
For number 1, I found that the formula for a stopped cone, i.e. a cone/frustum with one closed end, was [math]kL = n \pi - \arctan (kx)[/math], where [math]k = \frac{2 \pi f}{v}[/math] and [math]x[/math] was the distance from the small end of the frustum to the vertex. If we replace all instances of [math]k[/math] with [math]\frac{2 \pi f}{v}[/math] and rearrange this equation to isolate [math]L[/math], we get [math]L = \frac{v(n \pi - \arctan (\frac{2 \pi fx}{v}))}{2 \pi f}[/math].

This is where we start substituting values. We know that [math]n = 1[/math], [math]f = 233.08[/math], and [math]v = 343[/math]. Also, since the instrument is a complete cone, [math]x = 0[/math], as the small end of the frustum is the vertex. Plugging those in gives us [math]L = \frac{343(1 \pi - \arctan (\frac{2 \pi 233.08 * 0}{343}))}{2 \pi 233.08}[/math]. Now we can simply whip out our calculators and find that the sax's length is .73579 meters, or [b]73.58 centimeters.[/b] Your answer, curiously, came out to half this value. I suspect it has to do with your use of the closed tube formula - unlike clarinets, which are stopped cylinders, stopped cones like saxes behave more like open cylinders such as flutes.

That's just what I got, and I might be wrong - feel free to let me know if I am!
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Re: Sounds Of Music C

Post by Nydauron »

smayya337 wrote:
Nydauron wrote:
1) Simple standing wave problem. Since it states the saxophone is a stopped cone, we will treat it as a closed tube.



if the wave is a fundamental wave. Now, plug in and ...



2) A perfect 5th down from B♭3 is E♭3 which has a frequency of 155.56Hz.



3) Another standing wave problem. The clarinet is an open tube.



if the wave is a fundamental wave. Plug in values...



The frequency is between C#4 and D4. So...

Setting we get...


...and...


Since frequency is closer to D4, the note is considered a D4 and is 46.8 cents flat from it.

4) Anotha one...



if the wave is a fundamental wave. Plug in values...



5) All these instruments are aerophones.
For number 1, I found that the formula for a stopped cone, i.e. a cone/frustum with one closed end, was [math]kL = n \pi - \arctan (kx)[/math], where [math]k = \frac{2 \pi f}{v}[/math] and [math]x[/math] was the distance from the small end of the frustum to the vertex. If we replace all instances of [math]k[/math] with [math]\frac{2 \pi f}{v}[/math] and rearrange this equation to isolate [math]L[/math], we get [math]L = \frac{v(n \pi - \arctan (\frac{2 \pi fx}{v}))}{2 \pi f}[/math].

This is where we start substituting values. We know that [math]n = 1[/math], [math]f = 233.08[/math], and [math]v = 343[/math]. Also, since the instrument is a complete cone, [math]x = 0[/math], as the small end of the frustum is the vertex. Plugging those in gives us [math]L = \frac{343(1 \pi - \arctan (\frac{2 \pi 233.08 * 0}{343}))}{2 \pi 233.08}[/math]. Now we can simply whip out our calculators and find that the sax's length is .73579 meters, or [b]73.58 centimeters.[/b] Your answer, curiously, came out to half this value. I suspect it has to do with your use of the closed tube formula - unlike clarinets, which are stopped cylinders, stopped cones like saxes behave more like open cylinders such as flutes.

That's just what I got, and I might be wrong - feel free to let me know if I am!
Yeah, I did a quick search and found that closed conical tubes act the same an open cylindrical tubes. Live and learn! :D

Assume the speed of sound is 343 m/s. You are standing still and a clown car a long distance away is barreling towards you at a constant speed of 37.42 m/s playing Entry of the Gladiators in E♭ major.
1) When the car plays C5 (the starting note of the piece), what do you hear?
2) What is the transposed major key that you hear?
3) What is the relative minor for the transposed key?

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Re: Sounds Of Music C

Post by dragonfruit35 »

Nydauron wrote: Assume the speed of sound is 343 m/s. You are standing still and a clown car a long distance away is barreling towards you at a constant speed of 37.42 m/s playing Entry of the Gladiators in E♭ major.
1) When the car plays C5 (the starting note of the piece), what do you hear?
2) What is the transposed major key that you hear?
3) What is the relative minor for the transposed key?
1) 580.33 Hz- closest to D[sub]5[/sub]
2) F major
3) D minor
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Re: Sounds Of Music C

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Nydauron wrote: Yeah, I did a quick search and found that closed conical tubes act the same an open cylindrical tubes. Live and learn! :D

Assume the speed of sound is 343 m/s. You are standing still and a clown car a long distance away is barreling towards you at a constant speed of 37.42 m/s playing Entry of the Gladiators in E♭ major.
1) When the car plays C5 (the starting note of the piece), what do you hear?
2) What is the transposed major key that you hear?
3) What is the relative minor for the transposed key?
In the time I took to solve this (because I got confused by the formula in our binder and had to write an easier version), it got solved by someone else, from my school no less. I promise I didn't read it.
1) We can just plug that in to the Doppler effect equation: [math]f = (\frac{c \pm v_r}{c \pm v_s})f_0[/math] to get [math]f = (\frac{343}{343 - 37.42})523.25[/math], which equals [b]587.33 Hz, or D5.[/b]

2) This would be in the key of [b]F major.[/b]

3) The relative minor is [b]D minor.[/b]
Last edited by smayya337 on Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sounds Of Music C

Post by Nydauron »

dragonfruit35 wrote:
Nydauron wrote: Assume the speed of sound is 343 m/s. You are standing still and a clown car a long distance away is barreling towards you at a constant speed of 37.42 m/s playing Entry of the Gladiators in E♭ major.
1) When the car plays C5 (the starting note of the piece), what do you hear?
2) What is the transposed major key that you hear?
3) What is the relative minor for the transposed key?
1) 580.33 Hz- closest to D[sub]5[/sub]
2) F major
3) D minor
1) Using doppler equation [math]f' = f_0 \frac{v + v_o}{v - v_s}[/math]...
[math]f' = 523.25 \frac{343 + 0}{343 - 37.42}[/math]
[math]f' = 587.3249 Hz[/math]
D[sub]5[/sub] is stated to be 587.33Hz. Regardless, you got the note correct, but you flipped [math]v_o[/math] and  [math]v_s[/math].
smayya337 wrote:
Nydauron wrote: Yeah, I did a quick search and found that closed conical tubes act the same an open cylindrical tubes. Live and learn! :D

Assume the speed of sound is 343 m/s. You are standing still and a clown car a long distance away is barreling towards you at a constant speed of 37.42 m/s playing Entry of the Gladiators in E♭ major.
1) When the car plays C5 (the starting note of the piece), what do you hear?
2) What is the transposed major key that you hear?
3) What is the relative minor for the transposed key?
1) We can just plug that in to the Doppler effect equation: [math]f = (\frac{c \pm v_r}{c \pm v_s})f_0[/math] to get [math]f = (\frac{343}{343 - 37.42})523.25[/math], which equals [b]587.33 Hz, or D5.[/b]

2) This would be in the key of [b]F major.[/b]

3) The relative minor is [b]D minor.[/b]
Yes correct!

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Re: Sounds Of Music C

Post by smayya337 »

Well, here's a bit about idiophones:
1) What does changing the length of a bar on an idiophone do to the bar's pitch?

2) What does changing the thickness of a bar on an idiophone do to the bar's pitch?

3) What does changing the width of a bar on an idiophone do to the bar's pitch?
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Re: Sounds Of Music C

Post by olivia.m19 »

smayya337 wrote:Well, here's a bit about idiophones:
1) What does changing the length of a bar on an idiophone do to the bar's pitch?

2) What does changing the thickness of a bar on an idiophone do to the bar's pitch?

3) What does changing the width of a bar on an idiophone do to the bar's pitch?
1) Longer bars will have a lower pitch. You can have a higher frequency by shortening the bar.
2) Making a bar thinner by carving material out from the bottom will lower the pitch.
3) Width has no effect on pitch as far as I know...
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