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Alright, so our gas expansion task is taking a little over 10 seconds. It varies from 5-12 seconds depending on whether or not we set it up correctly. It consists of a heater heating up gas inside a small chamber. The chamber is connected to a tube which holds water. An electrode at the end senses when water drips out the tube. Is it a problem that this task takes over 10 seconds? Technically it's an electrical sensor sensing the water so would be counted as an electrical timer taking over 10 seconds?

Kyanite wrote:

ScottMaurer19 wrote:

SluffAndRuff wrote:
You're absolutely right, preventing this is important. Thing is, I had a chemical timer running up to near 3 minutes and I wanted to make sure that we wouldn't go over if the next task didn't trigger. I don't really think this is intentionally stalling.

I had the same thoughts. What if my timer was only supposed to run 2 min to allow for the other tasks to complete, but I am unaware that the action has failed (by taking too long) and I lose all my other actions after it?

Maybe they want to add risk to running a chemical timer, or avoid people from wirelessly starting the next action?

I would encourage competitors to cite General Rule 1 if the ES tries to prevent them from timing the device themselves/ask for the time.

Rezalis wrote:Alright, so our gas expansion task is taking a little over 10 seconds. It varies from 5-12 seconds depending on whether or not we set it up correctly. It consists of a heater heating up gas inside a small chamber. The chamber is connected to a tube which holds water. An electrode at the end senses when water drips out the tube. Is it a problem that this task takes over 10 seconds? Technically it's an electrical sensor sensing the water so would be counted as an electrical timer taking over 10 seconds?

That's exactly our first thought, but later we connected that to the water task. The heater is 12 ohm nichrome wire. With 9V battery, it is instant (< 1 second) push the water to a tube to finish the water task.

To me, the 10 seconds rule apply here, not because of the sensor, but because of the heater is electrical. If you heat it with a candle or some flame, the 10 seconds rule should not apply.

jinhusong wrote:

Rezalis wrote:Alright, so our gas expansion task is taking a little over 10 seconds. It varies from 5-12 seconds depending on whether or not we set it up correctly. It consists of a heater heating up gas inside a small chamber. The chamber is connected to a tube which holds water. An electrode at the end senses when water drips out the tube. Is it a problem that this task takes over 10 seconds? Technically it's an electrical sensor sensing the water so would be counted as an electrical timer taking over 10 seconds?

That's exactly our first thought, but later we connected that to the water task. The heater is 12 ohm nichrome wire. With 9V battery, it is instant (< 1 second) push the water to a tube to finish the water task.

To me, the 10 seconds rule apply here, not because of the sensor, but because of the heater is electrical. If you heat it with a candle or some flame, the 10 seconds rule should not apply.

I'm a little confused why there's concern with action 4.b.iv taking 10+ seconds. I understand there was previous debate about it being used for the timer bonus and the open circuit being an "electrical sensor", but that shouldn't matter here ("electrical sensor" was only introduced for timer bonuses, if I'm not mistaken). It sounds to me like your action is mechanically "powered" by a pressure difference, and provided the open circuit does not drain the battery in any way, I don't see how the action would be "powered by electricity" for 10+ seconds and violate rule 3.i. I fully agree that an electrical heater for 10+ seconds would violate it.

It's not a bad idea to play it safe, but I would like to understand the concerns with it.

marty3 wrote: ("electrical sensor" was only introduced for timer bonuses, if I'm not mistaken)

Yes, I believe that is correct.

marty3 wrote:It sounds to me like your action is mechanically "powered" by a pressure difference, and provided the open circuit does not drain the battery in any way, I don't see how the action would be "powered by electricity" for 10+ seconds and violate rule 3.i.

This remains an open question. I still remain concerned that any task involving electricity, which 4.b.iv explicitly does, can be found in violation of 3.i. if it takes longer than 10 seconds to complete. Without an FAQ (which is unlikely) this is entirely at the supervisor's discretion as to whether the whole action must be powered by electricity or simply any component. My full explanation for this reasoning is earlier in this thread.

marty3 wrote:I fully agree that an electrical heater for 10+ seconds would violate it.

Agreed.

marty3 wrote:

jinhusong wrote:

Rezalis wrote:Alright, so our gas expansion task is taking a little over 10 seconds. It varies from 5-12 seconds depending on whether or not we set it up correctly. It consists of a heater heating up gas inside a small chamber. The chamber is connected to a tube which holds water. An electrode at the end senses when water drips out the tube. Is it a problem that this task takes over 10 seconds? Technically it's an electrical sensor sensing the water so would be counted as an electrical timer taking over 10 seconds?

That's exactly our first thought, but later we connected that to the water task. The heater is 12 ohm nichrome wire. With 9V battery, it is instant (< 1 second) push the water to a tube to finish the water task.

To me, the 10 seconds rule apply here, not because of the sensor, but because of the heater is electrical. If you heat it with a candle or some flame, the 10 seconds rule should not apply.

I'm a little confused why there's concern with action 4.b.iv taking 10+ seconds. I understand there was previous debate about it being used for the timer bonus and the open circuit being an "electrical sensor", but that shouldn't matter here ("electrical sensor" was only introduced for timer bonuses, if I'm not mistaken). It sounds to me like your action is mechanically "powered" by a pressure difference, and provided the open circuit does not drain the battery in any way, I don't see how the action would be "powered by electricity" for 10+ seconds and violate rule 3.i. I fully agree that an electrical heater for 10+ seconds would violate it.

It's not a bad idea to play it safe, but I would like to understand the concerns with it.

Thanks, we have it working now. Our heater wasn't sealed right. Now ours also takes less than one second to complete.

Mira Loma's Mission was apparently in the range of 5 cm x 10 cm x 20 cm (all tasks and chemical timer).

Unome wrote:Mira Loma's Mission was apparently in the range of 5 cm x 10 cm x 20 cm (all tasks and chemical timer).

That's simply insane...

PM2017 wrote:

Unome wrote:Mira Loma's Mission was apparently in the range of 5 cm x 10 cm x 20 cm (all tasks and chemical timer).

That's simply insane...

~5 seconds for all tasks and 2:53 chemical timer (if it worked as expected - I do not know how they actually did)

windu34 wrote:

PM2017 wrote:

Unome wrote:Mira Loma's Mission was apparently in the range of 5 cm x 10 cm x 20 cm (all tasks and chemical timer).

That's simply insane...

~5 seconds for all tasks and 2:53 chemical timer (if it worked as expected - I do not know how they actually did)

It appeared to have worked well, though they left their mission in the room to argue about points I assume.