New York 2021

[vye904]

NY is now saying to use adobe instead of Preview, and the use of any other program that modifies the answer sheet is grounds for DQ.

Thoughts?

I like the idea of everyone using the same program, but I don't know if adobe was the best choice. I guess it's the most foolproof universal program since edge can't be downloaded on chromebooks (I think) and chrome had known saving issues at div b regs. At least everyone using adobe will prevent DQs like the ones in div b. The largest problem would be getting it on school chromebooks, but it could be possible to have district admin unblock it? Doing this within 1 week would probably be difficult though. One of the members on my team used adobe for both his events and it worked well according to him.

I wonder why only some preview submissions caused problems and a DQ. Also I wonder if NYSSO has a way to see if a PDF was edited with chrome/edge vs adobe.

[drcubbin]

NY is now saying to use adobe instead of Preview, and the use of any other program that modifies the answer sheet is grounds for DQ.

Thoughts?

Sounds like NY further dividing the competition. I don't expect schools to allow the download of applications of any kind on school chromebooks, which is the only thing some students have. I also don't see what the issue is with using edge or chrome, as I thought using those applications allow the autosum function to work (assuming that the autosum not working is the main grounds for DQ).

The problem is that many of the other pdf programs (PDFelement, Foxit, Mac Preview, etc...) are "altering" the fillable pdf and causing either its appearance to be changed (DQ) or reconfiguring the fillable pdf so that it is no longer "fillable". Adobe Free Reader does not do this.

[Booknerd]

NY is now saying to use adobe instead of Preview, and the use of any other program that modifies the answer sheet is grounds for DQ.

Thoughts?

Sounds like NY further dividing the competition. I don't expect schools to allow the download of applications of any kind on school chromebooks, which is the only thing some students have. I also don't see what the issue is with using edge or chrome, as I thought using those applications allow the autosum function to work (assuming that the autosum not working is the main grounds for DQ).

Thank you for considering those who must use a school-issued computer. I suspect that this might be a larger issue than people may think, especially if many students do not have access to personal devices at home. As an event supervisor, I've encountered many instances of students being unable to view third-party resources not on Scilympiad, even on websites such as Google Drive or even Dropbox. This is definitely something that New York should take more seriously - people may not be able to download software on their Chromebooks, and it doesn't even support ChromeOS.

[knightmoves]

Thank you for considering those who must use a school-issued computer. I suspect that this might be a larger issue than people may think, especially if many students do not have access to personal devices at home. As an event supervisor, I've encountered many instances of students being unable to view third-party resources not on Scilympiad, even on websites such as Google Drive or even Dropbox.

This is particularly true for middle school kids - middle schools usually have more restrictive configurations for their chromebooks than high schools, so even if your local high school kids can do something, there's no guarantee that their younger siblings in middle school can do it.

[caitlinwithaC]

I'm reading through all of these posts post-B-regs and just getting more stressed.
Does Adobe Reader work as well on iPads as on computers? I think I've told my team dozens of different things on what's allowed between a month ago and now...

[vye904]

I'm reading through all of these posts post-B-regs and just getting more stressed.
Does Adobe Reader work as well on iPads as on computers? I think I've told my team dozens of different things on what's allowed between a month ago and now...

I think there's an adobe acrobat ios app on the app store but I'm not sure if it will "alter" the file or how it functions compared to the desktop version. I'm guessing the features would be slightly different but I haven't tried it. I guess the only way to see if it won't result in a DQ is to ask a regional coordinator or someone from NYSSO.

Does anyone know if the adobe restrictions are only for one region or something NYSSO released to everyone? Hopefully they consider the school device and ChromeOS incompatibility before regionals this Saturday and send out some sort of clarification. Otherwise, will people who can't access adobe just use chrome or edge?

[snowyowl]

NY is now saying to use adobe instead of Preview, and the use of any other program that modifies the answer sheet is grounds for DQ.

Thoughts?

Sounds like NY further dividing the competition.

That's exactly how I feel. While one of the primary goals of the STAR system was to improve equity among competing schools, it's still doing the opposite, by benefiting schools that have access to more technology. The major issue that New York seems to be facing is the usage of programs that disable autosum. I think there's a few possible solutions, although none of them are perfect:

1) Allow programs such as Chrome and Edge to be used if Adobe is not accessible. I'm unsure as to if this messes up the autosum feature, but these options all seem to work relatively well from other standpoints.
2) If consistency of submission method is important and one method must be mandated, I would have to imagine Chrome is preferable to all, although once again, its impact on the autosum feature is unclear at the moment. Among schools that have access to computers, all or nearly all of them are able to use Google Chrome.
3) Use Scilympiad or a similar system. The downside of this is that it has been known to crash, while the benefit is that disqualifications that have been happening at recent regionals would likely be avoided due to a simpler test-taking and submission method. Of course, this transition would likely have to happen after Division C Regionals.

While these are all valid solutions, it's essential to first know if autosum is essential to test grading, and if so, what alternative programs would allow the autosum function to work properly when the pdf is edited. I've never graded a test before, so I definitely can't speak to the usefulness or uselessness of such a feature.

[Blesson]

Does anybody know where I can find the regional bids for division C?

[scispork]

NY is now saying to use adobe instead of Preview, and the use of any other program that modifies the answer sheet is grounds for DQ.

Thoughts?

Sounds like NY further dividing the competition.

While these are all valid solutions, it's essential to first know if autosum is essential to test grading, and if so, what alternative programs would allow the autosum function to work properly when the pdf is edited. I've never graded a test before, so I definitely can't speak to the usefulness or uselessness of such a feature.

I've heard that Regional Coordinators are actually recommending printing out the PDFs in order to grade how they normally would, in an effort to try to compensate for the discrepancies or differences in submissions between teams. Although this was in the context of Division B regionals, it initially seems as though some flexibility should also apply to Division C regionals since the communication, in my region at least, has been underwhelming.

Unfortunately, there are issues with a degree of submission flexibility which could result in some teams having an unfair advantage, such as the ability to collaborate, copy and paste, or use other PDF viewers besides Adobe Free Reader. In the interest of fairness, I'm starting to lean towards the side of a more strict adherence to the submission rules with little flexibility regarding DQs. However, if this were to happen, NYSSO would really need to step up their game in terms of clear and effective communication, as well as forming a set of submission rules that is able to be followed by everyone.

Thoughts on flexibility vs strictness concerning submission rules?

[vye904]

I've heard that Regional Coordinators are actually recommending printing out the PDFs in order to grade how they normally would, in an effort to try to compensate for the discrepancies or differences in submissions between teams. Although this was in the context of Division B regionals, it initially seems as though some flexibility should also apply to Division C regionals since the communication, in my region at least, has been underwhelming.

Unfortunately, there are issues with a degree of submission flexibility which could result in some teams having an unfair advantage, such as the ability to collaborate, copy and paste, or use other PDF viewers besides Adobe Free Reader. In the interest of fairness, I'm starting to lean towards the side of a more strict adherence to the submission rules with little flexibility regarding DQs. However, if this were to happen, NYSSO would really need to step up their game in terms of clear and effective communication, as well as forming a set of submission rules that is able to be followed by everyone.

Thoughts on flexibility vs strictness concerning submission rules?

I think the flexibility for DQs varied based on region. It looks like west LI allowed teams to resubmit when they encountered a blank pdf while my regional gave participation points. I'm guessing it's based on the regional coordinator's choice. Not sure if this will also be the case for div c. I believe my regional strictly DQed if the autosum did not work or if it showed any signs of converting. I asked why my team had been DQed and received "Your sheets showed signs of being converted to a google doc and then back to a pdf. They said that they saw subtle signs of these small alterations to determine this," despite not using google docs, kami, or anything that knowingly could have altered the file. I hope regions that are strictly DQing explicitly inform participants of what will get them DQed.

Because I would have rather been able to compete under WLI's leniency, I prefer flexible submissions. I think if NYSSO had better communication they would be able to reinforce strict DQs, but considering the little amount of info being received right now, I don't think it's fair to DQ left and right for things many teams won't even know not to do. The strict DQs further drift online competitions from what it would be like in person, where leniency was much higher if a team wrote the wrong team number or accidentally didn't write their school on a page. Considering all the confusion around what we're supposed to do, it is incredibly confusing for students. It leaves little room for basic human error, and groups people who purposely didn't follow the rules, people who cheated, people who made a mistake, and people who knew the rules but got DQed due to lack of communication together. Then again, both flexible and strict DQs group everyone together. Either way, both methods can be unfair, only one benefits everyone and the other DQs everyone. I honestly want to know if they can't use Scilympiad because of NY privacy laws or they just don't want to.