Towers B/C

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Re: Towers B/C

Post by Balsa Man »

Raleway wrote:
pjspol wrote:I am not sure if this has been discussed at length this year, but I was wondering about the benefits / downfalls of utilizing a rectangular, bridge-like base rather than the typically square base. This seems especially pertinent because of the wide angle on bonus towers. I have seen some high level teams utilize this bridge-like base design, but from what I found, it is much easier to achieve a very competitive weight with the traditional square base.

The traditional square base with bonus for this year requires approximately 4 23cm and 4 40cm segments of main compression member size. The bridge-like design (at least the one I saw) would require 4 60cm segments from top to bottom in the main column, 2 30cm segments as the base of the bridge, and 4 ~23cm segments as supports from the bridge ends to the main column, all of which need to be of fairly large dimension (main compression member size).

Any ideas?
I personally dislike the "bridge approach." Although it seems at first it would be easier to put together and what not, other factors come into play. As described, it is "bridge" like. Actually, the base is quite literally a bridge; that means it also has to take into account torsion and all those other more nuanced forces. Being so tall but also so thin, toppling is far more of an issue. The connection should be easier but then building such an unwieldy structure requires more attention elsewhere. Both have their merits but to get above 3,000 I believe the traditional square base is far better. Now here's Balsaman, with the much better analysis.
Thanks for the nice setup, Raleway. But I'm going to take the short answer approach,
I've discussed this, and gone over the issues- why, like Raleway, I think a well done square base will beat a well done rectangle- I encourage you- or anybody wondering, to search/dig back to find those posts. Raleway has all the key points except two- the length required in the X braces down toward the bottom of the base- much longer than what's needed in a square, so they have to be much stronger/heavier, and the difficulty of putting together a single high precision jig that allows you to assemble/align the base and chimney legs (rather than using two jigs and attempting to get things to line up.
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Re: Towers B/C

Post by bombsci »

Any comments on using 3/32 x 3/32 sticks for braces in the base?
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Re: Towers B/C

Post by Cow481 »

bombsci wrote:Any comments on using 3/32 x 3/32 sticks for braces in the base?
Depends on your design
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Re: Towers B/C

Post by Raleway »

bombsci wrote:Any comments on using 3/32 x 3/32 sticks for braces in the base?
Why specifically in the base? Using the Buckling Formula and knowing how stick dimensions affect that will yield your answer (moment of inertia and more specifically in refined thin beam formula, cross-sectional area as well). However, it seems quite interesting to use such thick sticks for bracing....
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Re: Towers B/C

Post by LiveMas »

Hi guys!

Even after looking at the picture that balsa man posted - the cast acrylic jig, I still don't understand exactly where to place the pieces on the jig. Is it on the sides of the panels? How would this work?

At Centerville we got 16th place with a 1657 efficiency.
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Re: Towers B/C

Post by Balsa Man »

LiveMas wrote:Hi guys!

Even after looking at the picture that balsa man posted - the cast acrylic jig, I still don't understand exactly where to place the pieces on the jig. Is it on the sides of the panels? How would this work?

At Centerville we got 16th place with a 1657 efficiency.
If you dig back through my posts you will find discussion/description…. But to summarize briefly.

The leg pieces go along the outer edges of the panels/plates. They are oriented so that, looking down at the end of a stick, one of the diagonal cross section lines is pointing to the vertical centerline of the tower – the center of the jig where the panels cross. To describe it another way, the ends of the sticks are square; if, looking at an end, you rotate the stick 45 degrees, they have a diamond cross section. You want them oriented so that one ‘point’ of the diamond is against the panels. That way, when you look at the 4 sides of the tower each pair of adjacent legs will flat faces in the same plane. The bracing goes on those flat faces.

As discussed before, you need some sort of ‘leg holder’ pieces, glued onto the edges of the jig plates, to hold the leg pieces in the orientation described above. The two options are small 90 degree angle iron – Hobbytown has small angle iron in both metal (brass) and plastic, and there are other on-line sources, or (the better option if you have 3-d printing access) you can 3-d print pieces. We’re using pieces printed at a 5cm length. When you look at one of these pieces end-on, the width is the thickness of your jig plates, there is a 90 degree “V” notch in the top (which is what the sticks ride in)- the shape is like a capital “M”. The flat side; the bottom side of the "M", is glued on the outside edges of the jig plates.
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Re: Towers B/C

Post by Balsa Man »

Raleway wrote:
bombsci wrote:Any comments on using 3/32 x 3/32 sticks for braces in the base?
Why specifically in the base? Using the Buckling Formula and knowing how stick dimensions affect that will yield your answer (moment of inertia and more specifically in refined thin beam formula, cross-sectional area as well). However, it seems quite interesting to use such thick sticks for bracing....
And my question would be, what kind of braces- Xs?, ladders?, bottom tension control strips?

It appears likely that the lightest bracing approach that will work is a ladder at the top of the base, some number of X bracing sets (using 1/16” wide, 1/32” thick X strips)- the number depending on the leg buckling strength you choose to use – and a tension band/strip around the bottom – to keep the bottom ends from pushing out – the lightest way to get the strength in these strips is using 1/64” sheet, relatively high density, about 1/16” wide; they need to carry a bit over 2kg in tension. The ladder at the top of the base needs to be strong enough to carry that same force in compression. Strongly recommend that ladder be the same wood size as the legs, and it should be butt-jointed in between the leg tops. Using a ladders and Xs bracing approach is also an option; some number of ladders (same size as the legs) butt-jointed in between the legs- the number depending on the leg buckling strength you choose to use, and between these ladders, X strips. In ladders and Xs bracing, the Xs can be 1/16” wide strips cut from 1/64” sheet- they need to be put on so they’re tight- no slack. For Xs in a ladders and Xs approach, you do not glue them together where they cross; in ‘all Xs’ approach, you do want to glue them together at the crossing point.

In all cases, 3/32x3/32 is not the best choice.

If you review the discussions/posts about how cross section affects buckling strength you’ll understand that the lighter, more structurally efficient way to get to a given/needed buckling strength is lower density with bigger cross section – 1/8” is going to be more structurally efficient than 3/32 – for legs, and for any ladders.
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Re: Towers Div C- Tower 'cage' leaning

Post by Balsa Man »

Samantha wrote:Hello!
I've built many towers with my partner and we are at an impass where the 'cage' part of the tower that has to be 8cm always leans when we test it. We don't know if the connection from the cage to the 'bridge part'/ base or if it's something wrong with the cage itself. But the cage and the bridge don't break themselves. Only the connection. Would really appreciate any help!
Hi, welcome to the forum.
First, rest assured you are not the Lone Ranger – running into towers failing in the way you describe is, and is going to be, the typical failure mode with this year’s rules. The 8cm circle constraint, and the “2 part” configuration it sets up, makes it really hard to produce a nice light tower that carries close to full load. Once the upper portion of the tower starts to lean at all – for whatever reason, at whatever point in loading, failure will happen almost instantaneously. And it will look like/happen like you describe.

If you take the time to read through the various threads here in the towers forum, you will see a lot of discussion that will help you understand this design challenge, and ways you can manage and overcome it. Yeah, there are a lot of pages, it’ll take time, but there are a lot of answers……
Quick terminology check- just for easy understanding; what you refer to as the bridge part/base is most commonly referred to as the base or base section. The long, narrow section that goes up from the base, what has to fit inside an 8cm circle; what you refer to as the cage, is most commonly referred to as the chimney.

Very briefly, there are a number of factors that…..play together to create the type of failure you’re seeing. There are ways/techniques to control/minimize each of these factors. To get to a good performance level, you have to deal with all these factors. That’s not easy, and it takes work.

An overview/review of the key factors-
Symmetry of the tower – for good tower performance/scoring, you need to get to the lightest pieces of wood that will carry the forces they see when the tower is loaded close to full load. If the legs are perfectly and symmetrically aligned, the load put on top of the tower is equally distributed onto the 4 legs. If the legs are not symmetrically located in 3 dimensional space, one leg is going to see more force than the others; it will fail first. On page 6 of this thread (2nd post on the page) there is detailed info to figure out the forces on the legs and leg segments, the strength of leg segments needed, for a range of bracing intervals, the density/stick weights needed to get to needed strengths. In addition to introducing overloading of one leg, asymmetry will also introduce twisting and leaning as the tower is loaded. That will rapidly overload both legs and bracing.

The best way to produce a tower with high precision and symmetry is a jig. Trying to do this without a jig is somewhere between extremely difficult and impossible. It is very difficult to get a really symmetrical tower using separate jigs for base section and chimney section (and then trying to put the two segments together so the leg segment ends line up perfectly). A “one piece” jig that aligns base and chimney legs together is the best way to get really good symmetry. There’s lots of discussion and tips in the forum of how to put together a decent jig to do this.
The joint between the base and chimney segments of the legs – probably THE critical point in the tower. As discussed, you need full contact between the bottom of chimney and top od base leg ends – no gaps, no mis-alignment. You want the leg ends the same cross section, and to do that means both mating ends cut at the same angle, and that angle is ½ of the angle between the chimney and base leg segments.
Strength/stability of the base section – As discussed before, once the chimney starts to lean, things go downhill quickly. The base needs to provide a solid, stable platform. If you get any distortion in the base, so that one of the four points of support moves down, that’s going to allow the chimney to start tipping – one or two thousandths of an inch can start the process.

Vertical vs ‘leaned-in’ chimney legs. You really help things if you provide for some lean-in of the chimney legs- at the lower end of the chimney, leg ends out pretty darn close to just fitting inside the 8cm circle; at the top, a bit closer together than they need to be to just/fully fit underneath the 5cm square load block; maybe 1/8 inch in all the way around. If the chimney legs are vertical, a) that means the tops of the base legs are leaned in more than they need to be- they will be seeing higher loading forces than leg tops all the way out to just fit the 8cm circle (= need to be heavier/stronger), and b) the vertical legs will be hyper-sensitive to any off-center loading, and to even a very small amount the tower not being really vertical. With lean-in, you significantly reduce this sensitivity.

“Disproportional loading” of the legs. It is really important to make sure that the load on the chimney legs is equally distributed. If one leg is seeing higher load than the others, additional pressure/load is being applied to one corner of the top of the base. That will push that corner of the platform the chimney is sitting on down, that will start the chimney leaning. This starts with careful sanding of the ends at the top of tower- so that all four ends are in the same plane, and are flat so they fully contact the bottom of the load block. You also want the bottom ends of the base legs all in the same plane, with flat/full contact with the testing base surface, AND when you have full four point contact at top and bottom, you want/need the tower to be standing as vertical as you possibly can. How to do this takes careful thinking, measuring, and working. The better you do this, the more load the tower is going to carry before leaning sets in…..
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Re: Towers B/C

Post by Cow481 »

I made a 6.2 gram tower and was wondering if I needed a horizontal brace at the top of the chimney. The tower is 6 x braces for the bottom and 5 x braces for the chimney and the wood size is 1/8 by 1/8 and 1/32 by 1/16 for braces. Thanks
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Re: Towers B/C

Post by Balsa Man »

Cow481 wrote:I made a 6.2 gram tower and was wondering if I needed a horizontal brace at the top of the chimney. The tower is 6 x braces for the bottom and 5 x braces for the chimney and the wood size is 1/8 by 1/8 and 1/32 by 1/16 for braces. Thanks
Need? Can't say for certain, but I'd sure recommend you do it. These top ladders can be from pretty light wood. Using 0.8gr/36" 1/8" wood, you'd be adding about 0.14gr wood - say 0.16gr w/ glue. With 0.7gr/36, a little less. Small price for additional stability.....
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