Ongoing Contest(Scores)

jander14indoor
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Re: Ongoing Contest(Scores)

Post by jander14indoor »

Rath4o1 wrote:When we score the boomilever if the boomilever fails should i put that as a tier two boomilever? or if it fails it does not matter?
See http://www.scioly.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3876 about this not being the place for clarifications, not official, etc.

Para 5.j addresses how to score a boom that fails before 15 kg reached. This is a competition rule. Sounds like its not a violation, so tier 1.

Recent past practice (4-6 years now?) on the structure events at regional, state and national level has been to score 'early' failure in tier 1.

I'm confident on my answer, but its still not official, if you are not convinced by your own reading of 5.j, submit a clarification question.

Jeff Anderson
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Re: Ongoing Contest(Scores)

Post by Balsa Man »

With same nothing official caveats, totally agree w/ jander's take.
There may be an interpretation ....angle if it fails when you put the bucket on - because you can't tell/say the load weight at which it failed, but if any sand get into the bucket, you have a measurable, therefor scoreable load (block+eyebolt+nut/washer+chain+bucket+some amount of sand).

Couple other thoughts related to failure.

With the scoring being simple, straight-up structural efficiency - weight carried divided by weight of structure, an "ultra light" option exists - a 15gr boom carrying 15 kg scores 1,000 pts. So does a 5gr boom carrying 5 kg. Not saying this IS the way to go, but it is A way; and some design are more, uh, supportive of such an approach

At what point do you want it to fail? Assuming you're not on an ultra light strategy, right at full load; 14.98, .99 kg; ideally, 15.0- last bit of sand goes in, it sits there a couple seconds, it blows up. If it easily carries full, it's over engineered; there is excess weight. In such a situation, the trick is finding it, so you can get it out.

Knowing how a structure fails can be tricky - compared to towers and bridges, booms are generally easier- you can often tell if a tension member pops (or glue fails and it pulls loose at one end or the other, or if the compression member buckles- especially if it starts slowly- when you can see bowing starting. Video can be helpful. If the failure happens quickly, you may miss it- point/time of failure may be between frames. Failure happens/starts at one point. The consequences can be a lot of other broken places. A "safety tower" arrangement (dig back through previous years discussions to understand) allows you to know where the "weak link" in a design is.
Len Joeris
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Re: Ongoing Contest(Scores)

Post by retired1 »

After dozens of versions and changes, my computer model weighs 5.55g plus the mounting block wt (total 6.+ g) and holds 16kg. It is actually much simpler and easier to build than earlier trials. Will start the students on it this week.
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Re: Ongoing Contest(Scores)

Post by Balsa Man »

retired1 wrote:After dozens of versions and changes, my computer model weighs 5.55g plus the mounting block wt (total 6.+ g) and holds 16kg. It is actually much simpler and easier to build than earlier trials. Will start the students on it this week.
Simple design, easy to build is a very big plus, for a number of reasons. A big one is it makes it more likely you can build to the precision needed to get design/modeled performance in what's actually built.
Impressive numbers. Our design calcs are pointing a bit higher, but not.....a lot.
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Re: Ongoing Contest(Scores)

Post by benklee127 »

What are you guys using for computer models? Would you be willing to share them?
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Re: Ongoing Contest(Scores)

Post by retired1 »

benklee127 wrote:What are you guys using for computer models? Would you be willing to share them?
I am using model smart 3D from pre engineering software corp (PESC) The program is under $100 for students.
It takes several hours of working with this to make it work easily, then it is excellent. I am old, so maybe it is just that I am old.
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Re: Ongoing Contest(Scores)

Post by iwonder »

Interesting software, assuming you've used it in past seasons, what's the translation between what it tells you will work and what actually works? I've seen some simulations that produce outrageous designs that don't work half as well in the 'real world'. Also, can you use specific densities of balsa? Or does it just have general balsa as a material?
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Re: Ongoing Contest(Scores)

Post by retired1 »

The nice part of the program is that it comes with some stock sizes and weights of both balsa and basswood. You can modify both the sizes and weights to suit your needs. You just change some sizes that you have zero use for. The program is quite accurate to real life based on bridges and towers. It tells you where it failed, what weight it held and model weight. You can rerun the analysis and have it color code tension and compression members. This all assumes that you glue well. It will print out the model so you have a CAD template to work on. This sure beats my drafting.
What it does not tell you is how to build the boomilever. I started out fairly heavy and did not hold much. After adding lots of bracing and weight, I changed the direction of some of the braces deleted several and was able to use smaller balsa and dropped the weight by 2 grams. By "saving the model as", you can keep the starting information which saves a lot of time, especially since the overall length and height will remain the same.
As I said before, it does take quite a bit of getting used to. The first model takes a lot of time, but you can literally try hundreds of changes in minutes. I think that on the high school tower last year I had 9 major restarts with dozens of modifications each. Won both MS and HS tower at state.
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Re: Ongoing Contest(Scores)

Post by Balsa Man »

Just took a few minutes to look through their web page. Very cool program; very, very cool.

The number of design factors it allows you input/deal with is very impressive; for all practical purposes, with a couple limitations I’ll highlight in a minute, seems to cover all the variables that matter.
In terms of it’s…..utility for boomilevers-
We have both tension in the tension member(s), and compression in the compression member(s).
Tension is much more straight-forward to deal with, so considering compression only. To keep things simple, assuming a single compression member.
Two major/basic approaches to this member – a) a truss- like a tower on it’s side, or a bridge loaded from the ends, or b) a constructed beam/column- like a box beam

The program is clearly well set up to deal with a), a truss/structure built with sticks/pieces of varying size and density. I can’t tell if it accommodates a constructed beam; but from what I could see, it looks like it may not. In that a constructed beam is a very viable approach to the compression member of a boom, if it can’t accommodate that, that’s a big hole….. An example I’m talking about would be a box beam- 4 “corner stringers”- for discussion purposes, let’s say a ½ inch apart, joined by “wall sheet”- so in cross section, ½ inch square- say 1/16th sq stringers, 1/64th thick x ½” wide wall sheets. Can such a construction be put into the program?

While there are other potential failure modes, the primary one for the compression member is column buckling failure- compression load along the long axis (axial loading)- in the case of a C-boom, around 40kg. When you axially load a thin column, at some load, it starts to bow out in the middle; with a tiny bit more load, it buckles/fails. Euler’s Buckling Equation describes this behavior, and with certain information allows you to calculate the buckling load a column will carry. For anyone interested, quite a bit of discussion on this in last year’s tower discussions (and Wikipedia provides a good presentation and discussion. The equation is:
FE = pi^2 x E x I / L^2
Where FE is the critical buckling load, L is the effective length (of the column), E is the (longitudinal) modulus of elasticity (also referred to as Young’s modulus), and I is the cross-sectional moment of inertia.
E is an inherent physical property of the wood, essentially how stiff, how resistant to bending under an axial load.

“I” (which you’ll see referred to in various discussions/sources as the moment of inertia, the cross-sectional moment of inertia, and the second moment of area) is, to state simply, a measure of the cross-sectional shape- how far material is from the axis of a column; how it is distributed around that axis. For two pieces of material/wood that are ‘the same’ (density/strength/stiffness), the one with the bigger cross section will be stiffer- have a higher I, and hence will have a higher FE; be a stronger column

As discussed at length over the years, E depends on and is…..some function of, density; the heavier/higher the density, the higher E is. What has not popped up in discussions on this board is a good data set for E; specifically E vs density, over the range of densities balsa comes in. Because wood is anisotropic- it’s grown, not manufactured – there is some level of variability between pieces, even if they are at the same density- so, in reality, for any density, there is a range of Es.

Resistance to bending, can be described in terms of something called "flexural stiffness. The variable turns out to be – as seen in Euler’s equation, the simple product of two factors, one reflecting the material present and the other its arrangement. The first is E. The second is I. So flexural stiffness (a.k.a. "bending modulus" or "flexural rigidity") is just E x I;

Looking at the “Success with ModelSmart3D” slide show series- #3, I see- as one would expect, the ability to plug in values for E and I.
Here’s where things begin to get interesting, and questions on the utility of this tool (beyond the apparent inability to handle/use/calculate E x I for a constructed beam) begin to emerge.

There’s a table (at slide 22) showing the program’s density range for balsa- from 12 to 24 lbs/cubic foot.
However, looking at the density range Specialized Balsa sells balsa over, we see a much larger range; for example, for 1/8 sq sticks, at 36” length, they’ll sell you sticks from 0.7 to 4.7grams. Converted to lb/cf, that’s 4.74 to 31.83 lb/cf…… I don’t know whether the program will accept densities outside the 12-24 range; if not, you can’t look at really light, or really strong wood options

Then, on the next slide (#23), we see a data entry box showing values for various physical properties, with a density entry of 17.2 lb/cf. The value for “E” (Young’s Modulus-the modulus of elasticity)- is shown as 676,000 psi (lb/ sq in).
Here’s where things get really interesting, and suggest fundamental ramifications beyond use of this program for booms. Being able to see only one value for E, I don’t know, and can only guess at the source for the data. It is suspiciously close to what is reflected in a data set that pops up early in a Google search. I don’t know the original source; it’s found on a number of web pages now. I’ve added conversion of densities to lbs/sf, Converting E from MPas (mega Pascals) to psi, we get 389 MPa = 56,420psi 460 MPa = 66,717psi 531 MPa =:77,015psi. Looks suspiciously like a one order of magnitude (decimal off one place) error, compared to the value in the program.

fm Balsa Wood Properties Guide
Lb/sf E (MPa) D-kg/m3
4.67 Lo 389 75
9.33 Med 460 150
14 Hi 531 225

There are also a lot of individual values for E to be found, and generally, the associated density is…..less than clear. They range from values consistent with the Balsa Properties Guide table to #s approaching twice the value the program’s showing.

Also, over the years, we have done some column testing – axially loading pieces of sticks, and measuring FE, which with weight (density) allows back calculation of E. Findings have been in the range of 10x the values seen in the BWPG table… hmmm….

And then this year, came across a very interesting research paper from 1956- work done by the U.S Forest Service. Ah, the wonders of the web!

http://scholarsarchive.library.oregonst ... sequence=1

See Table 1 and most importantly, Fig 7.
Data from 27 samples/tests. E vs density plotted.
The density data in this report is expressed in specific gravity (SG). Water has a specific gravity of 1; it weighs 62.428 lbs/cu ft, so to convert SG to Lbs/cu ft, multiply SG x 62.428; e.g., an SG of 0.14 is 8.74 lbs/cu ft.
So the data range is from an SG of 0.08 to almost 0.185- ~5 to 11.5 lb/cu ft. To come up with Es for densities > 11.5 lbs/cf, you have to extrapolate into unmeasured territory, so certainty falls off…..at least a bit. Enough data points with a range of measured Es at/near a given density to see and understand the degree of variability in d vs E. Really cool.

There are a lot of reasons to think this data is good- accurate. If so, the value in the screen shot in the program is…..significantly off. Pulled from Fig 7, I see a range of E, at a density of 17.2 lb/sf between 1,102,000 and 1,448,000 psi. If that’s true, that would suggest the model at mid-5 grams – with corrected Es would be….lighter. In that mid 5gr range is at the “can win nationals” level, hard to believe a weight materially lighter. Interesting thoughts to ponder, huh?
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Re: Ongoing Contest(Scores)

Post by retired1 »

I am not a paid sponsor of that or any site. I just answered the question asked.

Can it handle built up beams, yes, with a fair amount of extra work That is beyond my ability and need.
Yes, it does cover axial and bending stresses.
You can even put side loads on it.

Is the same size and density the same strength--certainly not, as most balsa users know. It will handle any wt of wood that you choose. If you do not like the values for any of the variables, you can change those as desired.

All of that is above nearly all students and most coaches.

It is written by a retired LSU engineering professor and an active ME.

If anyone does not like it, don't buy it.

That said, it has worked very well for me on bridges and towers.

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