Robot Tour C

brian9640
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Re: Robot Tour C

Post by brian9640 »

However, I do have a few questions. One, the motor you linked seems great, but it is much higher priced than others, especially once factoring in that you need at least 2, one for each wheel. Is there any real advantage over the "yellow" motors that you find on kits, i.e. the ones with external encoders that you said make 20 or so pulses per rotation? I understand that it is more precise, but how much better is 300 than 20? Is there any speed difference?
Yes, these are more expensive than the yellow motors. I like the motor referenced in previous post. Mainly because encoder and motor are one item. When using the yellow motors, then sensor to read the slotted disc must be mounted. Its just simpler for the students to use the more expensive motor.

This is my opinion on 20 vs 540 counts per revolution. As with a 45 to 1 gear ratio, its 540 counts per revolution because the encoder is before the 45:1 ratio. The encoder is 12 counts per revolution. Therefore 45 times 12 counts = 540 counts per revolution.

If you are using a 7.5cm diameter wheel, that is 23.56 cm per wheel rotation. At 20 counts per revolution, the accuracy is (23.56cm / 20 counts) 1.18 cm per count. At that accuracy the robot could be positioned within a few centimeters of the target at best. With the 540 counts per revolution, then the accuracy is (23.56 cm / 540) 0.044 cm. Which is overkill on the positioning accuracy. But I prefer the higher counts to help control the motor speed. Since there are two motors (left & right), both need to rotate at near the same speed to move in a straight line. The 540 counts can help improve motor speed control when using a PID loop control for speed. The example TopFinishKits program does use a PID speed control. Just the PID loop needs to be tuned. Which should be another thread as that requires a much larger discussion.
Also, from my understanding, the ultrasonic sensor has a limited viewing angle - is it possible/beneficial to install multiple sensors on the topfinishkit robot without any hardware modifications, except for printable (I have a printer and some CAD knowledge, so I can figure out mounting), in terms of connecting electronically to the arduino.
The issue is the basic Arduino is limited on sensor inputs. You would need to use a larger Arduino with more inputs and outputs to have multiple ultrasonic sensors.
Finally, for the software. I have very limited knowledge in arduino, but plenty in object-oriented languages in general, so I want to try to understand to see how tricky it will be. For the robot to function autonomously, I think there's two possible ways, so which one is better (or is it even allowed?):

1) looking at the track and programming a path beforehand (but is 10 minutes enough, and how would you program if you can't even test it?)
2) go straight forward and turn with obstacle avoidance until the end is reached (but how would you get to the gate zone, or make sure not to go backwards?)
Below is an example concept for programming a robot. This is from a presentation I have given on Robot Tour at several of the coach clinics. Below shows a recommended concept on how to program a robot. Again the TopFinishKits sample program shows a method to create the command list below.

Image

I hope this helps.
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bobbbbb (November 13th, 2023, 8:40 am)
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Re: Robot Tour C - Build Policy

Post by Mr.McK »

Just a question about the SO build policy. Which of the following would be allowed under the heading of "student-built device":

Obviously, it's fine for students to design and print / make their own parts, but what about the following scenarios?

1. Download 3d parts from the web (with no modification) and get them printed by an online service.
2. Download 3d parts from the web (no modification) and print them yourself.
3. Download 3d parts (with some modifications) and get them printed online.
4. Design your own parts and get them 3d printed online.
5. Design your own sheet metal parts and get them laser cut & bent by an online service.

If a student modifies a pre-built kit, they will of course be using a lot of parts that were designed and made commercially.

Thanks for your input!
brian9640
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Re: Robot Tour C - Build Policy

Post by brian9640 »

Mr.McK wrote: November 13th, 2023, 7:57 am Just a question about the SO build policy. Which of the following would be allowed under the heading of "student-built device":

Obviously, it's fine for students to design and print / make their own parts, but what about the following scenarios?

1. Download 3d parts from the web (with no modification) and get them printed by an online service.
2. Download 3d parts from the web (no modification) and print them yourself.
3. Download 3d parts (with some modifications) and get them printed online.
4. Design your own parts and get them 3d printed online.
5. Design your own sheet metal parts and get them laser cut & bent by an online service.

If a student modifies a pre-built kit, they will of course be using a lot of parts that were designed and made commercially.

Thanks for your input!
Very good question as this has come up often. Your example scenarios require more effort than just purchasing a VEX or Lego robot. Which the VEX and Lego kits are allowed provided they are not pre-assembled. I see no issues with any of your 5 scenarios. Designing does include the selection of parts for purchase. The most important requirement is the students assembly and wire the robot. I have only penalized students when the presented device was assembled by others not on the 15 member team.

As the above is just my opinion, I was trying to find some FAQs about "student-built device" that have been answered for any event. I could only find the one below for Robot Tour. You could always submit your question to the FAQ General Questions. Your question is more general and not really just one event.

https://www.soinc.org/using-lego-mindst ... gram-legal
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Re: Robot Tour C

Post by bobbbbb »

Brian, thanks so much for your earlier reply! You answered all of my questions (and more) for now, but don't worry, I'll be right back to annoy you and the others once I get this thing built lol.
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Re: Robot Tour C - Build Policy

Post by Mr.McK »

brian9640 wrote: November 13th, 2023, 8:29 am
Mr.McK wrote: November 13th, 2023, 7:57 am Just a question about the SO build policy. Which of the following would be allowed under the heading of "student-built device":

Obviously, it's fine for students to design and print / make their own parts, but what about the following scenarios?

1. Download 3d parts from the web (with no modification) and get them printed by an online service.
2. Download 3d parts from the web (no modification) and print them yourself.
3. Download 3d parts (with some modifications) and get them printed online.
4. Design your own parts and get them 3d printed online.
5. Design your own sheet metal parts and get them laser cut & bent by an online service.

If a student modifies a pre-built kit, they will of course be using a lot of parts that were designed and made commercially.

Thanks for your input!
Very good question as this has come up often. Your example scenarios require more effort than just purchasing a VEX or Lego robot. Which the VEX and Lego kits are allowed provided they are not pre-assembled. I see no issues with any of your 5 scenarios. Designing does include the selection of parts for purchase. The most important requirement is the students assembly and wire the robot. I have only penalized students when the presented device was assembled by others not on the 15 member team.

As the above is just my opinion, I was trying to find some FAQs about "student-built device" that have been answered for any event. I could only find the one below for Robot Tour. You could always submit your question to the FAQ General Questions. Your question is more general and not really just one event.

https://www.soinc.org/using-lego-mindst ... gram-legal
Brian, Thanks for your prompt and helpful response. I think I will do as you've suggested and post this to the General FAQ.
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Re: Robot Tour C

Post by coach05 »

brian9640 wrote: November 12th, 2023, 4:12 pm
Any recommendations on a motor for this kit. We can't find a TS-25GA270H-45
The link below from Amazon is the same as the TS-25GA270H-45 motor. This item on Amazon has several gear ratio options. The 130 RPM motor has the 45 to 1 gearbox.

https://a.co/d/iQkk1mQ
Thanks for the recommendation but that motor is not available to purchase 2 right now. Any other recommendations?
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Re: Robot Tour C

Post by brian9640 »

coach05 wrote: November 14th, 2023, 11:32 am
brian9640 wrote: November 12th, 2023, 4:12 pm
Any recommendations on a motor for this kit. We can't find a TS-25GA270H-45
The link below from Amazon is the same as the TS-25GA270H-45 motor. This item on Amazon has several gear ratio options. The 130 RPM motor has the 45 to 1 gearbox.

https://a.co/d/iQkk1mQ
Thanks for the recommendation but that motor is not available to purchase 2 right now. Any other recommendations?
These are just suggestions. No promises this is a one for one match

Robot Shop is showing 200 units in stock.
https://www.robotshop.com/products/25d- ... X8QAvD_BwE

Image

Another possible option from Robot Shop. Shows over 900 units in stock
https://www.robotshop.com/products/25dx ... X8QAvD_BwE

Image
Last edited by brian9640 on November 14th, 2023, 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bobbbbb (November 14th, 2023, 12:43 pm)
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Re: Robot Tour C

Post by bobbbbb »

Sorry if this is a dumb question but why is the 130rpm motor the one to go if the 600rpm (from the original motor at least) is the same price?
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Re: Robot Tour C

Post by kamprath »

bobbbbb wrote: November 14th, 2023, 12:43 pm Sorry if this is a dumb question but why is the 130rpm motor the one to go if the 600rpm (from the original motor at least) is the same price?
Not a dumb question. Two reasons: you get more toque to move the robot when the gear ratio reduces the RPM of the motor more, and it is easier to control a slow moving robot than a fast moving robot. Then you might ask why not go with the 10 RPM version? At some point it's too slow to finish the course by the target time (typical wheel circumference about 7 CM, so 10 RPM can move at the fastest 70 CM in one minute, which is likely not fast enough to navigate a 2m x 2m course in a minute.
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bobbbbb (November 14th, 2023, 1:01 pm)
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Re: Robot Tour C

Post by bobbbbb »

kamprath wrote: November 14th, 2023, 12:59 pm
bobbbbb wrote: November 14th, 2023, 12:43 pm Sorry if this is a dumb question but why is the 130rpm motor the one to go if the 600rpm (from the original motor at least) is the same price?
Not a dumb question. Two reasons: you get more toque to move the robot when the gear ratio reduces the RPM of the motor more, and it is easier to control a slow moving robot than a fast moving robot. Then you might ask why not go with the 10 RPM version? At some point it's too slow to finish the course by the target time (typical wheel circumference about 7 CM, so 10 RPM can move at the fastest 70 CM in one minute, which is likely not fast enough to navigate a 2m x 2m course in a minute.
That makes sense, thanks!
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