Scioly.org

sciolyperson1 wrote:

drcubbin wrote:

sciolyperson1 wrote: What about other schools' 9th graders? Every freshman always has similar high school obligations, so shouldn't they all have the same disadvantage?

I guess you are referring to those 9th graders in a 7-9 middle school. Just my opinion, but if you are in 9th grade (7-9 or HS), you are undoubtedly taking chem, physics and some level of more advanced math and you should be competing with HS teams. But... you will find that some HS's don't even let 9th graders participate a team because they want to play the more seasoned players. So I am proposing teams should be decided by grade level, which many are not because most middle schools (just a guess) do not have - or do not have access to - 9th graders leaving an unequal playing field. It is sort of like a middleweight fighting a heavyweight, or a lightweight fighting a middleweight.

Many of our 8th graders perform just as well, if not better, than some 9th graders.

Also 9th graders don't have as much as an advantage as you would think. Most are not taking AP/advanced sciences as a freshman, and don't really get an advantage because they are in Highschool. It's mainly just about experience....tho I'll say that if my middle school let 9th graders compete in DivB a few years ago, there was a likely chance they would have made nats...

Also 9th graders don't have as much as an advantage as you would think. Most are not taking AP/advanced sciences as a freshman, and don't really get an advantage because they are in Highschool. It's mainly just about experience....tho I'll say that if my middle school let 9th graders compete in DivB a few years ago, there was a likely chance they would have made nats...

Agreed, it is about experience, but having "experience" in physics (for Optics or Thermodynamics) or chemistry (for Food Science, Crime Busters or Water Quality) certainly can't hurt

I also agree that some 8th graders can do better than 6th graders. We have had 6th graders who have medaled higher than 8th graders But let's be honest. If there was no advantage to bringing back 9th graders, why would teams do it? And if there was no advantage, why would SciOly limit the number to five (5)?

AlfWeg wrote:Also 9th graders don't have as much as an advantage as you would think. Most are not taking AP/advanced sciences as a freshman, and don't really get an advantage because they are in Highschool. It's mainly just about experience....tho I'll say that if my middle school let 9th graders compete in DivB a few years ago, there was a likely chance they would have made nats...

Yep, completely agree. I did 9th grade Div B last year, and I did purely building events. Taking Bio (which im trash at lol) gave me no advantage whatsoever over other 6th, 7th, and 8th graders. What does give an advantage however, are adults building devices for the competitors.

drcubbin wrote:Agreed, it is about experience, but having "experience" in physics (for Optics or Thermodynamics) or chemistry (for Food Science, Crime Busters or Water Quality) certainly can't hurt

An 8th grader on my team won 1st in thermo at nats in 2018, and two op 8th graders on our team got 2nd in waqua this year.

sciolyperson1 wrote: What does give an advantage however, are adults building devices for the competitors.

I don't think this is the right comment for this thread, but I'll definitely agree with that statement.

Taking Bio (which im trash at lol) gave me no advantage whatsoever over other 6th, 7th, and 8th graders. What does give an advantage however, are adults building devices for the competitors.

An 8th grader on my team won 1st in thermo at nats in 2018, and two op 8th graders on our team got 2nd in waqua this year.

Then your team might actually benefit more by taking no 9th graders. Correct?

drcubbin wrote:

Taking Bio (which im trash at lol) gave me no advantage whatsoever over other 6th, 7th, and 8th graders. What does give an advantage however, are adults building devices for the competitors.

An 8th grader on my team won 1st in thermo at nats in 2018, and two op 8th graders on our team got 2nd in waqua this year.

Then your team might actually benefit more by taking no 9th graders. Correct?

I don't think my brother implied that... he's saying that 8th graders can be just as good as everyone else, including freshmen. He's trying to show examples where 8th graders performed extremely well at the national level to support his point that 9th graders aren't needed to make a good team. 9th graders aren't necessarily better than everyone else, but they are a great resource to use if a team chooses to in order to make their team even better.

It is obvious that overall, 9th graders on average are objectively better at scioly than middle schoolers - that's just what one extra year does to people. However, examples like Daniel Wright show that 9th graders are not obligatory to get a team to nationals or even win nationals... twice.

Most teams with a few exceptions would benefit from freshmen. However, the benefit is much smaller than you probably think.

builderguy135 wrote:

drcubbin wrote:

Taking Bio (which im trash at lol) gave me no advantage whatsoever over other 6th, 7th, and 8th graders. What does give an advantage however, are adults building devices for the competitors.

An 8th grader on my team won 1st in thermo at nats in 2018, and two op 8th graders on our team got 2nd in waqua this year.

Then your team might actually benefit more by taking no 9th graders. Correct?

I don't think my brother implied that... he's saying that 8th graders can be just as good as everyone else, including freshmen. He's trying to show examples where 8th graders performed extremely well at the national level to support his point that 9th graders aren't needed to make a good team. 9th graders aren't necessarily better than everyone else, but they are a great resource to use if a team chooses to in order to make their team even better.

It is obvious that overall, 9th graders on average are objectively better at scioly than middle schoolers - that's just what one extra year does to people. However, examples like Daniel Wright show that 9th graders are not obligatory to get a team to nationals or even win nationals... twice.

Most teams with a few exceptions would benefit from freshmen. However, the benefit is much smaller than you probably think.

When you say, "(9th graders) are a great resource to use if a team chooses to in order to make their team even better" or "It is obvious that overall, 9th graders on average are objectively better at scioly than middle schoolers" you are proving my point. We are thrilled by our ascent and will continue to move up, but having five of our 9th graders who are now headed to Brooklyn Tech or Stuy on the team would certainly create a different playing field. Imagine if a HS team competed against another HS team with five college freshmen... majoring in physics and chem? I love our team - every year - but I'm just doing the math.

drcubbin wrote:

builderguy135 wrote:

drcubbin wrote:
Then your team might actually benefit more by taking no 9th graders. Correct?

I don't think my brother implied that... he's saying that 8th graders can be just as good as everyone else, including freshmen. He's trying to show examples where 8th graders performed extremely well at the national level to support his point that 9th graders aren't needed to make a good team. 9th graders aren't necessarily better than everyone else, but they are a great resource to use if a team chooses to in order to make their team even better.

It is obvious that overall, 9th graders on average are objectively better at scioly than middle schoolers - that's just what one extra year does to people. However, examples like Daniel Wright show that 9th graders are not obligatory to get a team to nationals or even win nationals... twice.

Most teams with a few exceptions would benefit from freshmen. However, the benefit is much smaller than you probably think.

When you say, "(9th graders) are a great resource to use if a team chooses to in order to make their team even better" or "It is obvious that overall, 9th graders on average are objectively better at scioly than middle schoolers" you are proving my point. We are thrilled by our ascent and will continue to move up, but having five of our 9th graders who are now headed to Brooklyn Tech or Stuy on the team would certainly create a different playing field. Imagine if a HS team competed against another HS team with five college freshmen... majoring in physics and chem? I love our team - every year - but I'm just doing the math.

A slight advantage.
Saying "If we only had you one more year, you would be taking 1st Place across the board" is completely false.

When it comes to having 9th Graders in Division B, while having the experience certainly helps, and the leadership will help keep the team together, I don't feel like having them is a make-or-break situation. Obviously you'd like to have them, but those 9th grades are also adjusting to high school, which means their focus might not be as high as if they were in 8th grade and already used to middle school. Plus, 8th graders have loads of experience as well and the curve of achievement just doesn't spike that much from 8th to 9th grade.

drcubbin wrote:

builderguy135 wrote:

drcubbin wrote:
Then your team might actually benefit more by taking no 9th graders. Correct?

I don't think my brother implied that... he's saying that 8th graders can be just as good as everyone else, including freshmen. He's trying to show examples where 8th graders performed extremely well at the national level to support his point that 9th graders aren't needed to make a good team. 9th graders aren't necessarily better than everyone else, but they are a great resource to use if a team chooses to in order to make their team even better.

It is obvious that overall, 9th graders on average are objectively better at scioly than middle schoolers - that's just what one extra year does to people. However, examples like Daniel Wright show that 9th graders are not obligatory to get a team to nationals or even win nationals... twice.

Most teams with a few exceptions would benefit from freshmen. However, the benefit is much smaller than you probably think.

When you say, "(9th graders) are a great resource to use if a team chooses to in order to make their team even better" or "It is obvious that overall, 9th graders on average are objectively better at scioly than middle schoolers" you are proving my point. We are thrilled by our ascent and will continue to move up, but having five of our 9th graders who are now headed to Brooklyn Tech or Stuy on the team would certainly create a different playing field. Imagine if a HS team competed against another HS team with five college freshmen... majoring in physics and chem? I love our team - every year - but I'm just doing the math.

The last thing I said in my reply was that "the benefit is much smaller than you probably think." Also, what lumo said: it's not a make or break situation.

If you want an "even playing field", get your 9th graders back to help! I'm sure that they're busy, but every freshmen on div B teams are too. Regarding distance issues, why can't partners just meet outside of school?