9th Graders in Division B

[danielkimzs]

I don't know how to solve the problem, but I do not think it's right for schools with no 9th-graders to get a competitive advantage against other middle schools in the same situation by pulling 9th-graders down from high school.

I think this is an important crux to this discussion. What somehow makes it "not right" for a team to use 9th-graders when they are allowed to? I don't get the mentality of "well, if we can't use 9th graders, then nobody else in our situation should be able to". That, to me, is not right.

Additionally, I think that schools that do well at states/nationals without any 9th-graders deserve some sort of recognition for that.
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If they are not following the norms followed by other schools because they "just trying to have a more competitive team" (translation: give themselves a competitive advantage), they can do it. It's not against the rules. But why do you think that no other member schools in the same organization have a right to know that this is happening?

I don't think other teams have a right to know which specific teams are using 9th graders. It could easily start getting into shaming territory. There's been a lot of rhetoric in this thread that suggests that schools that cap out at 8th grade should not use 9th graders, and that doing so is somehow morally wrong. Given this, how would making team compositions public be helpful at all?

I do think that recognizing the top teams that cap out at 8th grade may be an interesting compromise. But, it has to be done in a way that doesn't shame other teams that are using 9th graders to compete.

[danielkimzs]

As a current competitor in Division. B Science Olympiad, we do have 9th graders on the team, however, they are not THE most important component of the team. The reality of it is that many Science Olympiad events go outside of the scope of what you learn in middle school, and thus one year extra of schooling doesn't make a big difference in SO. It's more important about how hard the individual studies themself. While our team has 5 9th graders available, we only take 3 on the "A-team." Because of this, it doesn't seem to be a "problem that needs to be solved." In Science Olympiad, every team has its natural advantages and disadvantages, whether it be funding, experience, or just how much SO is valued in general at that school. Now, at the top schools in Division B, 9th graders are often utilized and it certainly gives an advantage. However, this advantage is not enough where it completely changes the scope of the Divison B Science Olympiad and makes it impossible for teams without 9th graders to make it to the National Tournament. Adding to the comment East made, it doesn't seem necessary to know which schools are using 9th graders. There is basically no positive outcome to come from this. Anyways, if there are 9th graders at a Junior High School, you cannot tell them they have to compete in Division C when they are attending Junior High School. Then, to make it even, SO allows ALL teams to have up to 5 9th graders(for those who want to be "competitive"). This appears fair to me, and if your school is unable to have 9th graders participate, it's not really fair to change the whole system to cater to schools that do not have 9th graders. Would one prefer that schools without 9th graders already not be allowed to take any 9th graders to competitions? I believe that Science Olympiad tries to be as inclusive as possible, and excluding them/pointing them out at competition is not kindly inclusive or productive in any way. To add to this, one of the best SO Div. B teams in the country, Daniel Wright, have never used High Schoolers. They are projected to place in the top 5 at the national tournament this year. Just a thought.

[SOcoachB]

I think this is an important crux to this discussion. What somehow makes it "not right" for a team to use 9th-graders when they are allowed to? I don't get the mentality of "well, if we can't use 9th graders, then nobody else in our situation should be able to". That, to me, is not right.

That's a straw man argument -- never had that mentality. By focusing on the norms for a particular region/state, I think I'm talking about a narrower set of circumstances than you: for example, when nearly all schools top out at 8th grade and one of the schools brings down 9th graders from the high school. To press the point, suppose this school nearly always qualifies for nationals and few of the competing schools even know that this school has 9th graders on the team.

Yes, this is allowed under the rules. That does not make it "right." Besides, the rules are set nationally to accommodate a very heterogenous range of circumstances. Within a state, where there may be more uniformity, there can be norms of fairness that are more specific to the situation.

I still think more transparency about this situation serves the goal of fairness. How about this? A state organization could simply publish summary data on how many member schools in Division B include grade 9, how many do not include grade 9, and how many schools in the latter category bring 9th graders down from high school to compete on their middle school team?

To add to this, one of the best SO Div. B teams in the country, Daniel Wright, have never used High Schoolers. They are projected to place in the top 5 at the national tournament this year. Just a thought.

I suspect Daniel Wright is the exception that proves the rule, but it would be nice to have data on this point (see transparency above). They deserve credit for being so competitive without any 9th graders, and I think it would be nice to acknowledge schools at nationals (or even states) that are competing without 9th graders.

Overall, you make a lot of good points, but it's not just the additional year of schooling/maturity that makes having 9th graders advantageous. It's also having an additional grade level from which to select the strongest students. More options.

[EastStroudsburg13]

That's a straw man argument -- never had that mentality. By focusing on the norms for a particular region/state, I think I'm talking about a narrower set of circumstances than you: for example, when nearly all schools top out at 8th grade and one of the schools brings down 9th graders from the high school. To press the point, suppose this school nearly always qualifies for nationals and few of the competing schools even know that this school has 9th graders on the team.

Yes, this is allowed under the rules. That does not make it "right." Besides, the rules are set nationally to accommodate a very heterogenous range of circumstances. Within a state, where there may be more uniformity, there can be norms of fairness that are more specific to the situation.

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement. Yes, the rules are set to accommodate many different circumstances. A school bringing back a 9th grader under the confines of that rule is fine with me. Full stop.

I still think more transparency about this situation serves the goal of fairness. How about this? A state organization could simply publish summary data on how many member schools in Division B include grade 9, how many do not include grade 9, and how many schools in the latter category bring 9th graders down from high school to compete on their middle school team?

Sure, a state organization could publish that summary data, and it would probably be edifying to have. Given how little control NSO has over its state organizations, I don't think a national effort towards this is happening anytime soon; the best you can probably hope for is asking your own state org and hope they oblige.

Anecdotally, my suspicion is that simply having ninth-graders is really not as major of an advantage as you are making it out to be. Perhaps in your own situation it is, but in my decade-plus on this site, there has never been more than scattered anecdotal evidence to suggest that this is a widespread problem.

[knightmoves]

To add to this, one of the best SO Div. B teams in the country, Daniel Wright, have never used High Schoolers. They are projected to place in the top 5 at the national tournament this year. Just a thought.

I should point out, that as an Illinois team, Daniel Wright is subject to Illinois rules, which means that were they to invite 9th graders to compete, they wouldn't be permitted to register a JV team. Clearly, not being able to have multiple teams compete in invitationals would be significantly detrimental to the program of any medium to large school.